The Israeli gov't playing rough with some settlers doesn't fix the problem with the Palestinians.

And it's a very Israel-slanted perspective to imply that somehow this makes things right.

Carl -- Are you saying that I am providing an "Israeli-slanted" perspective by stating that Gaza has to go well?

I think that you are wrong if that is the case. Gaza has to happen to make steps after Gaza possible. I didn't imply at all that withdrawing from Gaza makes things right. That would be simple-minded and inaccurate.

But in this problem, micro steps must be taken to get to better macro outcomes.

Appreciate your many posts -- but wanted to make sure that you know what I am suggesting and why I think Gaza is fundamental to a path that may get us to a "real" two-state solution.

best,

Steve Clemons

Steve, I think the point is that there is a real possibility that this Gaza withdrawal is part of a policy whose goal is to make sure that withdrawal from the West Bank never happens.

Not to mention that Jerusalem is being integrated while everyone is focused on Gaza.

But I sometimes wonder if the Likkud want everything to go well. How many times have they restarted their targeted assinations after a truce has been negotiated?

I don't know what percentage of Israel's income comes from the US government and donations by us Christian and Jewish organizations, but I believe the running total of loan guarantees is over $1 trillion.

Like Focus on the Family and gay marriage, MoveOn.org and conservative judges, and many political organizations they may need a crisis to keep funds coming in. They run the risk of being forgotten if things get too quiet.

So even if events go well they may want to manufacture a crisis to keep fundraising efforts going.

An official with the Palestinian Authority suggested this week that Sharon's motives are being given too much consideration by outsiders.

He said that there are far too many variables in play - the complexity and volatility of the situation simply makes predictions impossible, even for Sharon and the IDF.

Offtopic (sorry):

"The Onion", the Gray Lady of humor and
tastelessness, has a picture of an emergency
medic van surrounded by people with the
following caption:

"Disgruntled Bolton Shoots 17 UN Delegates, Self"

Although on a serious level I do not wish anyone
harm, like much in the Onion I had a guilty
laugh at this one. Also like much in the Onion
there is a certain belivability to this caption.

I now return you to serios discussion of policy
and other issues of our times.

Ian

Steve, I agree. It is big and important, and might even be an improvement in this decades-long conflict. Maybe these leaders, these older men, are getting tired of war. Stranger things have happened. Do I dream?

Steve,
You are right in that Gaza needs to go well. While I find it difficult to believe that there will be civil war in Israel, much can go wrong.

Headline: Gush Katif settlers to lock gates to stop IDF entering
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/612075.html

And in a letter from one of the residents of Gush Katif (not exactly unbiased), the following: "They must not know that across from Neveh Dekalim, next to the PLO flag, across from the Israeli flag, there are already four - yes, exactly four - yellow flags flapping in the breeze, and no more need be said." (the yellow flags are Hezbollah's)
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArtDisengagement.jhtml?itemNo=594545&contrassID=23&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=1

And also "Abbas, surrounded by security guards, spoke briefly. "From here, from this place, our nation and our masses are walking toward the establishment of an independent Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital," Abbas told the crowd."
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/612035.html

As for Carl's statement "The Israeli gov't playing rough with some settlers doesn't fix the problem with the Palestinians." he is correct, but so is Steve in that progress is not always made in giant leaps. This is by no means over.

On a side note (and seriously off-topic), isn't anyone else the least bit concerned/excited/puzzled about Christopher Walken's decision to run for President of the United States in 2008?

Steve,

While I wish the Gaza withdrawal well, I fear that the chaos that is the present state of Gaza precludes such an outcome...but perhaps that is the plan, to show that withdrawal in chaos has bad consequences...thus legitimizing Israel's permanent occupation of the West Bank and perhaps the United States occupation of Iraq.

Quid pro quo?

Giving land to terrorists will not create peace, it will create more bloodshed. I believe this is a huge mistake by Israel. Gaza will be another islamic terror base from which not only Israel will be attacked but America will as well.

This is the "peace" we can expect from the "palestinians" after Israel's withdrawal, or should I say surrender:

Fifteen-year-old Abdel Kareem Mohammed Abu Habel sits in an Israeli prison after he tried and failed to martyr himself [i.e., after he tried to murder Israelis en masse —ed.] last year. Would he do it again? Without a doubt, he says.

Abdel Kareem Mohammed Abu Habel agrees with Israeli critics who say that next week's disengagement from the Gaza Strip and parts of the West Bank will do nothing to stop Palestinian terrorist attacks against Israel.

Sitting in his jail cell in the Sharon Detention Center in central Israel, he also said he would never accept peace with the Jewish state, even if Israel eventually pulled back to its pre-1967 borders, behind the so-called Green Line. He doesn't even know what the Green Line is.

The only peace he wants "is to get back all our lands," meaning the entire state of Israel.

"We don't want the Jews on this world," he said.

Laura,

I'm sure it is pure coincidence, but your words were mentioned over and over...and over last night by those who have in the past been highly supportive of the Israeli policy of summary executions of Palestinians.

Odd that...in Israel, a Jewish man can kill the prime minister in cold blood...in plain site...for purely political reasons...and not fear execution, yet a Palestinian suspect can be singled out on the street and executed on the spot.

Sorta reminds you of something doesn't it?

Laura, on the subject of your second post, you probably haven't heard about this, but coerced jailhouse confessions have a rather poor record when it comes to accuracy, but regardless, since when does Israel look to jailed Palestinian's opinions when setting it's policy?

C'mon Laura make an effort to be original when you spout talking points. If you want to see how it's done, look at the wonderful pabulum that comes from the Pakistani Embassy, always the same excuses and yet, always highly original writing.

Steve, why can't Palestine & Israel exist as 1 state? Why has Israel been allowed to destroy Palestine and nearly commit genocide against its people? Why are the terrorists who became Israel's government allowed to dictate that Hamas and other Palestinian organizations who use terror, like them, to defend their people, must disarm before they are taken seriously?

I agree that Gaza is the first of many steps. But my entire life has been spent watching the "victims of The Holocaust" create and sustain a second one, and I've never understood why someone, preferably the US, hasn't stood up and said "Enough is ENOUGH!!"...

I worry that Israel is planning to pull settlers out of the region, and then they're going to bomb the place to smithereens.

Laura says:

"Giving land to terrorists will not create peace, it will create more bloodshed. I believe this is a huge mistake by Israel."

The evidence of your belief is what happened in 1948 to the Palestinians. They gave half of their land in the spirit of peace to the Zionists, and now look at the "state" of Palestine.

Gaza withdrawal as a sideshow: While the Israelis take more Palestinian land in Jerusalem.

Israel is to ask the US for $2.2 billion to pay for the relocation of its illegally settled colonists. According to Israeli political sources, the special funding would be used to house 9000 evacuated Jewish settlers in underpopulated areas of Israel.

Lets see... that is about 245,000 dollars per settler.

Why should the US give aid to Israel for the Gaza withdrawal? Israel already receives over 3 billion dollars in annual US foreign aid.

How long does the US have to carry this welfare state?

If we just "pay attention" to the withdrawal, that is how the peace process will fail. The outcome will be a situation where Israel annexes some land and the Palestinians are left with a truncated state. The conflict will continue indefinitely. Unless the United States gets directly involved in reviving the peace process, Israelis and Palestinians will not make peace with each other. Now is the opportunity to push for a return to the Roadmap and a negotiated settlement.

There have been indications that Bush intends to revive the Roadmap but I don't think he has the courage. Donating to Brit Tzedek v'Shalom and signing their petition (http://www.btvshalom.org/) or donating to Peace Now (http://www.peacenow.org/) is a good start to pressuring our government to stop neglecting this festering conflict.

arthur,

The word for the $2.2 billion is "extortion," not to mention "The Chutzpah." The word for the USA is "schmucks," and always has been when dealing with "The Chutzpah."

Pullout from Gaza in addition to the wall erected around portions of the West Bank is the end of the process. The Wall defines the final boundaries. No more discussion needed. Jerusalem is Israel's. Take it or leave it. No more Road Map. The end of the road has been reached. Any more trouble, and the Wall will be moved to incorporate more West Bank territory as punishment. Iran must be taken out because they will not like what is to come and their nuclear ambition must be severely thwarted as it puts Israel in mortal danger. Conflict with Iran is inevitable, and better sooner than later. Final Solution with Israel ascendant is near at hand; US is collateral damage.

I wish both sides the best during this difficult Gaza pull-out period.

That said, one can see some increasingly wierd "code" talk coming from Israeli officials as they allow/encourage even closer ties with the ultra rightwing US religious fundamentalist groups. This a.m. on C-Span I watched an interview with the Israeli ambassador to the US. He was patiently explaining to a caller how, historically, the area known as Gaza was occupied by the Philistines, so there is no bibically documented Jewish right to the area. Which, of course means that there must be other areas that the Jews have a clearly bibically documented "right" to occupy.

This is a really sad and ultimately unsustainable rationale for Israel's right to exist. Which is not to say that I don't believe that Israel has a right to "exist." Far from it. But, the US waxes and wanes when it comes to religious revivals. And, the present fundamentalist support is not really based on what is best for the Israelis long term. If I am not mistaken, the fundies think that the Jews have to occupy all their historical bibical lands so that God can come back and destroy them or some such.

I have to admit that George Bush has tried to bring about a solution in Israel. Unfortunately, with his base consisting of so many evangelicals he is vulnerable when they protest. When he tries to help the Palestinians, the Christian leaders start large email, phone, and fax campaigns to stop him.

As I understand, the other reason the evangelicals support Israel is that they believe Israel is blessed by God, so for the US to be blessed the US has to support Israel.

The funny thing is, Muslims accept Jesus as a prophet of God, and as far as I know Jews do not.

Fareed Zakaria made an interesting comment this morning. His belief is that Sharon is just trying to eliminate the overseeing of 1.2 million Palestinians while he comes up with an overall solution.

I wonder if Americans with their lack of history really understand these two cultures and the long history of struggle between them. I remember Turks telling me that songs we were singing were fairly new, only 300 hundred years old. This both creates a sense of place and a tradition that's hard to break.

The current generation of Palestinians and more conservative Israelis may be lost to the peace process because of a combination of teaching and experience of combat. Until the two can be separated and NGOs or someone work to change these biases the struggle will continue. But having fought for 5,000 years I'm not sure the battle will easily end.

The evidence of your belief is what happened in 1948 to the Palestinians. They gave half of their land in the spirit of peace to the Zionists, and now look at the "state" of Palestine.

Truly a distorted view of history. First, there were no "palestinians" in the present sense in 1948 (unless you are talking about Jews living in Mandatory Palestine). Second, the land was not theirs to give, and they did not give it. And third, 80% of Mandatory Palestine was handed over to the Arabs in 1922 - it is now called Jordan.

Fourth, I have 1930's - 40's postal stamps from "Palestine," so a place called "Palestine" was in existance, and people there were called "get off my Land given to my People by God!" by the Zionists.

Yes, a place called "Palestine" was in existence. So what? A place called the Ottoman Empire was also in existence.

You're right, Nud, and there was once a place called Judea and Samaria. So what?

Actually there are still places called Judea and Samaria. "Palestine", as a state never existed. And the way they are going, never will.

You nudniks gotta stop fighting!

Rabbis, priests, ministers, whatnot, all tell their people that God, or the Gods, smiled upon them after they killed and kicked other people off land they wanted. If you kill people and take their lands, God must like you because you didn't get your ass kicked trying. But if somebody kicks your asses and throws you off land you kicked somebody else's ass to get, then God is displeased with you since you got your ass kicked. When you get back to the ways that God wants through rituals, soul searching, austerity , wandering and whatnot, you can go back and kick the asses to the people that took your land as proof that God likes you again. So whoever is in possession of a land can say that God favors them, and God gave them that land since He saw to it that they kicked the asses of others who had been there whom God disapproved of.

Real simple to figger out. Might makes Right because God gives his strength and blessings only to those who follow his prescribed ways. That's how the Sorcerers of religion cast the illusion on their peoples to make them strong so that they continue to be fruitful and prosper. The people swallow it up.

GOD BLESSES AMERICA !!

Everyone should be sure to read the item on Gaza from "The American Prospect"'s August issue.