RSS
Using PayPal
Torture Deal? Keep Your Powder Dry. . .Vice President Cheney's Power May Be on the Rise Again
Share / Recommend - Comment - Print - Thursday, Dec 15, 05, 3:00PM
The White House and various Congressional watchers are suggesting that a deal has been forged that accepts John McCain's language that Americans and their agents will not engage in torture or inhuman treatment of prisoners. But no one really knows the legislative details, and even Congressman Duncan Hunter has said that lots still needs to be worked out.
I don't trust Vice President Cheney on this front -- and nervous rumors are leaking out of the White House and State Department that Vice President Cheney's supposed "containment" by Bush was a ruse, or at least was just temporary.
Some are suggesting that Cheney and his people are back -- and that he has even sent word out on one front that "diplomacy with North Korea will be suspended." Rice may not yield to Cheney, but what is important to note is that some of those who thought that the Libby indictment and combination of bad news items crippling the White House had harmed Cheney's status are now reversing themselves. At a minimum, they are talking less definitively about Cheney's downfall.
The New America Foundation and I are hosting a small dinner tonight at Washington's Cosmos Club with Lawrence Wilkerson, former State Department Chief of Staff, and I'm sure that this topic will come up. I'll report back if anything new comes to the surface.
More later.
-- Steve Clemons
"I don't trust Vice President Cheney on this front -- and nervous rumors are leaking out of the White House and State Department that Vice President Cheney's supposed "containment" by Bush was a ruse, or at least was just temporary."
You aren't actually implying that the Monkey Boy has EVER been anything other than a malleable and willing pawn of the Neocons are you Steve???? No offense, but sometimes I wonder if your naivete is feigned, or genuine.
"Some are suggesting that Cheney and his people are back"
Steve, if I take Colonel Wilkerson at face value, these folks have an entrenched network (aka Cabal). That network did not evaporate into the bureaucratic wallpaper because of Scooter or Crazy Eye speeches out at the AEI. Hence, given Colonel Wilkerson's assertion about an entrenched, coordinated network at multiple levels operating outside the statutory boundaries, I would never conclude they've gone any where.
But, if someone is trying roll up this operation, tug on your ear twice for yes, blink three times for no...
"I don't trust Vice President Cheney on this front ............"
BTW, what "front" DO you trust him on????
somehow, i never thought the trickier dick would roll over for anybody... evidently, he has no immediate plans to "go gently into that good night..."
Said before, say it again, Dick Cheney is one of the plain meanest, evil people on this planet.
And if the god he claims to believe in is for real, then Cheney and his ilk already have their heaven.
I love Vice-President Cheney. Cheney is OBSESSED with protecting the USA after 3,000 of our citizens were murdered on US soil; it intensified his focus. Cheney and the neocons and Bush don't feel that we have to ask any foreignors' permission before we take steps to protect the USA - by whatever means necessary.
Bush and Cheney may be wrong on a lot of little things, but IMHO they are totally right on the big picture of national security.
Powell's deputy Wilkerson is just mad because he lost a political battle. He needs to be informed that the deputy Sec of State and the Secretary of State do not set foreign policy. Nope, that job is for President Bush who tells the State Dept what the policy is. Just like Bush tells John Bolton to support that LOST fiasco, Bush tells State what the foreign policy line is.
And if they don't like it, they can leave just as Powell and staff did.
As for the UN. Who cares if that place is offended by the USA. I don't. God Bless America! (And a Merry Christmas to everyone!)
My own suspicion has been that all the talk of Cheney being on the outs with the Shrub is more disinformation/propaganda which I suspect is being floated by Cheney himself.
"I don't trust Vice President Cheney on this front"
The only front I would trust Richard Cheney on, is the bad actor front. In my out-here-in-the-hinterlands, ill-informed judgement, the Vice President is a font of darkness and a ham fisted P.R. hammer. He has been used as a heat shield for the President externally and internally as a statutory shredder that would make Arthur Anderson blush. The teflon coating is showing some wear, but I would imagine it's still part of the playbook.
In a bureaucratic knife fight between Rice and Cheney, I'm probably going to lay semi-heavy odds on Cheney, but these things are determined by Posse strength, wind direction, and simple-minded greed in the D.C. so I'm willing to be talked out of this judgement. I am curious to see if Rice can neutralize the various neo-con factions; I really doubt it...her jabs and upper cuts look a little light-in-the-butt, as they say out at the gym. She might stand a chance now that Rice is no longer the NSA.
What is the CW of where Hadley's fits into all this infighting? Who will he run interference for? Initials are fine...
You're a lucky guy to hang out with all these people.
The apparent undermining of Cheney was a ruse to allow Bush to gain credibility and power in the minds of Americans. Cheney can still do his dirty work in the shadows and under the radar, which is where he prefers it anyway. He doesn't relish the limelight particularly. And when others think Cheney is down is when they take their eye off the ball. They lose focus. This allows Cheney to pursue his aims with much less scrutiny.
Cheney is obsessed with protecting the USA? Are you kidding? He's obsessed, all right. But not with that. He was obsessed with Iraq LONG before 9/11 ever happened. Nothing to do with terrorism and everything to do with the almighty dollar.
We wait with bated breadth for the reportage on the Wilkerson sitdown.
For some of us, - there is no illusion regarding the facsict elements of the Bush governments unfettered, deeply entrenched, unchecked, and unadulterated power, and pathological obssession with re-engineering America into a totalitiarian dictatorship operating above, beyond, outside, in breach, and total disdain of America's laws and principles.
Just as there is much wailing and gnashing teeth with regard to withdrawls or drawdowns of US forces in Iraq, and numerous theories flying willy nilly through the myst about when, or how many, or what may or may not emerge as a government in Iraq - the grim factbasedreality remains unchanged - nothing will change.
The fascists elements in the Bush government are feverishly working exclusively and singularly on plundering Iraqi oil and profiteeringly wantonly from the war, occupation, and socalled reconstruction process - and this cabal has no intention of ever leaving Iraq regardless of who or what emerges as the new Iraqi government.
We are all left to argue amongst ourselves, pay the terrible costs in blood and treasure, hazard and burden the global political consequences for decades while the fascist cabals in the Bush government insidiously operate behind our backs serving and advancing their own singular and exclusive interests, and engorging the off-sheet accounts of cronies and oligarchs in or beholden to the fascist cabals in the Bush government.
The Plamegate episode is another case in point wherein the unaccountable fascist cabals in the Bush government revenge outed one of our own WMD proliferation operatives (Plame) and operations (Brewster Jennings Associate) in a retaliatory act of vengence and treason to discredit Joseph Wilson for publically debunking one of the many deceptions the fascist WHIG/OSP/OSI cabals used to FALSELY justify the plunder, profiteering and noendinsight horrorshow in Iraq.
A US WMD proliferations asset and operation were recklessly compromised by the fascist cabals in the Bush government who in turn are unaccountable, continue operating above, beyond, outside, in breach and total disdain of the law, and continually throw sand in the face of both the judicial and political process unabated, and unchecked.
The re-engineering and of American laws and principles to conform to the nazilike and perverted torture abuses, and rendition policies are additional unholy examples of the unfettered, unrestricted, unabated ambitions and designs of the fascist elements in the Bush government operating as a totalitarian dictatorship above, beyond, outside, in breech and total disdain of the laws and principles that formally defined our unique experiment in democracy.
The nazification of America continues unabated, and many of us realize there is no way to prevent the fascist cabals in the Bush government from commandeering and ultimately destroying, and re-engineering America.
What happened to phase II of the pre-war intelligence investigation?
Why are Sibel Edmonds and Indira Singh gagged?
Why are Americans denied disclosure on Cheney's secret cabals drafting our energy policy?
Why are were pages referring to Saudi involvement financial or otherwise redacted from the 9/11 whitewash, - I mean report?
Where is our $9bn missing or unaccounted for when Bremer was acting viceroy of Iraq and dishing out reconstrution contracts to fascist Bush government cronies and oligarchs as head of the CPA?
What happened to the Ptech, Downing Street Memo, and Able Danger revelations?
All the badnews is conveniently swept off the radar or under the rug, and the fascist warmongers and profiteers in the Bush government continue unchecked and unacccountable on the bloody costly and notsomerry Pax Americana way.
We can only watch as the nightmare unfurls before our eyes. Yet, our eyes and ears are open and there is no illusion about our leaderships unholy designs and ambitions or the unprecedent power they wield. The fascist Bush government shades and shaitans are implementing the New World Order.
A somnabulent public and impotent congress and judicial either allow this process to continue and are incompetent or complicit, or we are all sad victims and powerless to oppose or stem the overarching and terrible abuses of the fascist cabals in the Bush government.
Either way we are witness to the insidious nazification of America by a leadership accountable no one and a government run amock.
Cheney is "obsessed" with protecting this country?
I don't think so. For example, think about how much evidence was available for an attack on the U.S. prior to 9/11 - and WITHOUT use of the so called "Patriot Acts" too. And even the 9/11 investigations committees have aluded to that as well).
If Cheney/Bush were so "obsessed" to "protect" this country, then 9/11 could have been prevented
The attack on Iraq has nothing to do with protecting this country from terrorists.
" ... a deal has been forged that accepts John McCain's language that Americans ..."
Oleary has a good point about that Army Field Manual. Saw a news posting that the Army has issued(or will be issuing) a classified addendum to the Field Manual.
Another possible loophole: what about the ammendment denying haebus corpus to torture victims and detainees? Steve, would you be able to find and report the ground truth on where this ammendment stands?
On some other web posting i thought i read something about this ammendment applies only to US-controlled facilities.
If Cheney or anyone else in the government was concerned about protecting the US, the first order of business is to secure the border. They have not done so and clearly don't plan to. Another domestic terror attack only gives them reason to crush dissent and solidify their hold on power. The poor little frightened sheep will run to them for protection. What a bunch of pathetic, scared, fools we are.
Drew is right. This is just one big PR stunt to get people thinking Bush has a brain. And, to look at the recent polls, it's working.
Bush is no more in control now than ever. Just look at his answers in the interview with Brian Williams. The guy is an uniformed and misiformed idiot.
Another problem seems to be that the House doesn't have the balls to do the same. They want exemptions. Apparently Repubes in the House are 1) pro-torture and 2) don't trust the American justice system (since the objections seem to be over "potential law suits).
Just saw Bush and McCain before the press. Was it me, or did Bush not look too good? Whatever.
Nope, the U.S. will not torture. We'll send'em to people who'll do it for us. The world is not fooled.
"The Man" above is right about the borders.
EU to set up CIA prisons inquiry
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/12/15/flights.europe.reut/index.html
STRASBOURG, France (Reuters) -- The European Parliament decided on Thursday to investigate allegations that the CIA used European states to transport and detain terrorism suspects illegally.
The U.S. Central Intelligence Agency is alleged to be operating secret jails in Romania and Poland and covertly flying prisoners through airports in Italy, Germany and Romania...
"The European Parliament is serious and determined about getting at the truth regarding extraordinary renditions through an investigating committee," British Liberal Democrat Baroness Sarah Ludford told Reuters.
She said that "if necessary" the assembly would also launch the European Union's sanctions process against member states "which have gravely breached human rights".Under the EU's ruling treaties, EU states found guilty of serious human rights breaches can lose their voting rights in the bloc's powerful Council of Ministers where governments meet.
Leaders of the political groups in the assembly decided late on Wednesday to set up a temporary committee of inquiry, whose mandate and composition will be decided next month.
Lawmakers approved a resolution expressing concern about the "presumed use of European countries by the CIA for the transportation and illegal detention of prisoners".
Large majority
The resolution, which also called for an investigation into the allegations, was passed with 359 votes in favour, 127 against and 32 abstentions.....
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10481155/
Do you agree with a ban on torturing suspected terrorists? * 34892 responses
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10480690/
Yes, torture is wrong no matter what 64%
No, torture is a necessary tool in the war on terror 32%
I don't know 4%
>I love Vice-President Cheney.
Thank you for sharing that bit of homoerotic obsession.
>Cheney is OBSESSED with protecting the USA after 3,000 of our citizens were murdered on US soil;
Which occurred largely through the ineptitude of Cheney and his colleagues who made a conscious decision to ignore Al Quaeda and Osama Bin Laden in favour of obsessing over largely fictional rogue states and STD missile systems.
It also ignores Cheney and Bush's performance in protecting America since 9/11. Katrina, anyone?
On that point, do you recall that the Bush/Cheney administration got a failing grade on preparedness by the 9/11 committee?
>it intensified his focus.
Well, I don't know about that. But it certainly produced many new opportunities for him to line his and his friends pockets. Or haven't you been paying attention to the way billions and billions are melting away through Homeland Security, the defense budget and the Iraq occupation and reconstrution.
>Cheney and the neocons and Bush don't feel that we have to ask any foreignors' permission before we take steps to protect the USA - by whatever means necessary.
It would be nice if they took any actual steps that worked.
On the other hand, are you willing to consider that perhaps a bit of cooperation would be helpful in protecting Americans?
>Bush and Cheney may be wrong on a lot of little things, but IMHO they are totally right on the big picture of national security.
Give money to Halliburton, hide in a bunker and hope for the best? ROTFL
>As for the UN. Who cares if that place is offended by the USA. I don't. God Bless America! (And a Merry Christmas to everyone!)
Happy Holidays from Canada.
habeus corpus denial is a part of the Patriot Act as it now stands. Please sign petitions:
Don’t cave in to the White House’s scare tactics. True patriots would vote against thisattack on our Constitutional freedoms and civil liberties.
Americans want Patriot Act Reform. People from across the political spectrum are opposed to thePatriot Act reauthorization bill, including the over 400 state and local governments that passed resolutions against the Patriot Act.
To read more before taking action, click here.
http://action.aclu.org/reformthepatriotact/
https://secure.aclu.org/site/Advocacy?alertId=339
===
Patriot Act Action Center
---UPDATE: Patriot Act Becomes An Anti-Civil Liberties Christmas Tree
by Congressman John Conyers
Wed Nov 16, 2005 at 03:49:44 PM PDT
11/17 UPDATE: A vote on the Patriot Act is expected in the House tomorrow.
ACLU Patriot Act Action Center
Here is my Patriot Act Page Last week I wrote to you about the Patriot Act conference. Many of you asked for an update.
Here it is and it is not good.
Early today, Republican sources began preemptively leaking descriptions of the conference report to various media outlets. The spin has been that this conference report represents a step forward for civil liberties. Now that I have seen the conference report, I can tell you that it does not.
Congressman John Conyers's diary :: ::
http://www.dailykos.com/story/200
5/11/16/174944/46
http://johnconyers.com/
=http://feingold.senate.gov/
~feingold/statements/05/12/200512133.html===Statement of U.S. Senator Russ Feingold On the Patriot Act Conference Report
I think he has a petition on this site also
==The courageous Senators vowing to filibuster the reauthorization bill - John Sununu (R-NH),Larry Craig (R-ID), Lisa Murkowski (R-AK), Dick Durbin (D-IL), Russ Feingold (D-WI) and Ken Salazar (D-CO) need to be thanked for taking a principled stand for freedom and urged to hold their ground. Please call now.
==BIPARTISAN GROUP OF SENATORS RESPOND TO PATRIOT ACT CONFERENCE
Sen. Reid is on board according to Feingold on his TPM Cafe articles and Charles Rangel has also joined against the Patriot Act.
=Have you contacted your Senator's to vote NO on the reathorization of the Patriot Act?
Khalid Sheik Mohammed and Abu Zubaydah were "water-boarded", and immediately started singing.
Water Boarding: The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt.
According to the sources, CIA officers who subjected themselves to the water boarding technique lasted an average of 14 seconds before caving in. They said al Qaeda's toughest prisoner, Khalid Sheik Mohammed, won the admiration of interrogators when he was able to last between two and two-and-a-half minutes before begging to confess. -- from an ABC News page
Is that "torture"? Sure sounds like it to me, though it doesn't cause permanent physical damage -- which is how some people are defining it.
Is it justified if you have a "ticking time bomb" situation, and the slower but "nicer" methods would yield too little too late?
None of us wants to be associated with a regime where torture is a part of the official -- or unofficial! -- interrogation regimen. And we are certainly bound by the Geneva Convention in, well, "conventional" warefare. But does one just dogmatically say there are never, never, never any extenuating circumstances where something like waterboarding is permitted for foreign terrorists who are trying to pull 9/11-style attacks, and you *need* to get that info immediately?
Enquiring minds want to know.
Sibyl Edmunds wrote on her site, http://www.JustACitizen.com, an article titled "I'm Just Gagged, I'm Not Dead" and ends with that statement and adds "yet" at the end of the article. Sibyl has a petition to get rid of the gag order and requests that people mention her site on other sites. I think she is worried and we owe it to our whistleblowers to support them. Please visit her very interesting site with interviews and information about her government groups and sign her petition.
Thank you.
http://www.tortureisnotus.org/ Petition
=Those rules say the accused can defend =themselves by arguing it was reasonable for them to believe they were obeying a legal order."
That fails the Nuremburg test. The Nazi's tried the same defense and it was stipulated it could not be used
BBC article yesterday, don't have URL:
Torture ruling's international impact
Analysis By Jon Silverman Legal affairs analyst
The law lords have ruled that secret evidence which might have been obtained by torture cannot be used against terror suspects in UK courts - what are the implications?
The law lords disagreed over standard of proof
Like the Pinochet judgment of 1999 which held that former heads of state did not have immunity from torture charges, this law lords ruling, too, will have international reverberations.
It is a trenchant affirmation of the supremacy of the common law over the procedural rules of the Special Immigration Appeals Commission.
Five centuries
As the senior law lord, Lord Bingham, said: "Torture and its fruits" have been regarded with abhorrence for over five centuries in English law.
But in July 2002, SIAC decided that it was entitled to consider evidence which may have beenobtained under torture. That decision is now null and void.
The effect of the law lords' judgment may be felt in countries which also have a common law system, such as Canada and Australia.
And even the United States will take note of it.
Carla Ferstman, Director of Redress, one of the 14 human rights organisations which were a partyto the case, said: " This must have an impact on the process known as extraordinary rendition.
"There is already an inquiry by the government of Canada into the seizure and rendition of a Syrian-Canadian citizen to Syria where he was tortured.
"I hope that the law lords' declaration will put even more pressure on the US and other countries to stop the practice."
Standard of proof
Although the judgment on the substantive issue was unanimous, the law lords disagreed about a significant matter - standard of proof.
It would be ludicrous for them to disregard information about a ticking bomb if it had beenprocured by torture
Lord Nicholls
Lords reject torture evidence
Three took the view that if, after an inquiry, SIAC could not reach a decision on whether evidence had been obtained under torture, it should exclude it.
But the majority held that SIAC was entitled to admit such evidence if it was left in doubt abouthow it had been gathered.
Given that chunks of SIAC hearings are held in secret, even the lawyers for appellants may notknow why the commission has decided to admit some evidence, despite claims that it has beentainted by the use of torture.
The law lords addressed the important ethical dilemma of whether the police or security forcesshould act on information which was the product of torture.
Lord Nicholls summed up their view that "it would be ludicrous for them to disregard informationabout a ticking bomb if it had been procured by torture."
But this was not the same as using that information in legal proceedings. SIAC will now have to review all the cases on which it has reached a decision, where torture may have been a factor in the gathering of evidence.
Whether the government will be deflected from its policy of trying to reach memoranda of uunderstanding with states where torture is practised remains to be seen.
Here's an interesting data point from the Crazy Eye Dick file...makes me feel better he's at the rudder...file under is-this-a-great-country-or-what:
Chickenhawk Down
"[...] then, twenty pages later, Schwarzkopf casually drops the information that he got an inspirational gift from Secretary of Defense Dick Cheney right before the air war finally got under way. Cheney was presenting a gift to a military man, and he chose something with an appropriate theme: "(A) complete set of videotapes of Ken Burns's PBS series, The Civil War."
But that wasn't the only gift that Dick Cheney had for Norman Schwarzkopf. Having figured out that the general was being too cautious with his fourth combat command in three decades of soldiering, Cheney got his staff busy and began presenting Schwarzkopf with his own ideas about how to fight the Iraqis: What if we parachute the 82nd Airborne into the far western part of Iraq, hundreds of miles from Kuwait and totally cut off from any kind of support, and seize a couple of missile sites, then line up along the highway and drive for Baghdad? Schwarzkopf charitably describes the plan as being "as bad as it could possibly be... But despite our criticism, the western excursion wouldn't die: three times in that week alone Powell called with new variations from Cheney's staff. The most bizarre involved capturing a town in western Iraq and offering it to Saddam in exchange for Kuwait." (Throw in a Pete Rose rookie card?) None of this Walter Mitty posturing especially surprised Schwarzkopf, who points out that he'd already known Cheney as "one of the fiercest cold warriors in Congress."
And so, of course, you already know what Dick Cheney — fierce cold warrior, vigorous advocate of the earliest and bravest possible attack, a man not afraid to take bold action with the lives of other men — did during the Vietnam war, when he was just the right age to open his personal pandour's box and go put some of that martial ferocity into direct practice: He took five years worth of deferments, four as a student and one as a soon-to-be-father, and avoided serving in the military altogether. Which is not to say that he wasn't fiercely in favor of the whole sick mess."
Torture Inc. Americas Brutal Prisons
Savaged by dogs, Electrocuted With Cattle Prods, Burned By Toxic Chemicals, Does such barbaric abuse inside U.S. jails explain the horrors that were committed in Iraq?
By Deborah Davies
They are just some of the victims of wholesale torture taking place inside the U.S. prison system that we uncovered during a four-month investigation for BBC Channel 4 . It’s terrible to watch some of the videos and realise that you’re not only seeing torture in action but, in the most extreme cases, you are witnessing young men dying.
Warning this video contains images and descriptions of violent and degrading treatment, which may distress some viewers.
Click here to watch this documentary. Windows Media.
http://informationclearinghouse.info/article8451.htm
Send a Free Fax to your Congresspersons and local media RESTORE HABEAS CORPUS
RESTORE HABEAS CORPUS. NO MATTER WHAT THEY SAY, WHAT MATTERS IS WHAT WE SAY!
http://www.infowars.com/articles/ps/torture_blair_faces_allegations_torture_complicity.htm
Blair faces allegations of complicity in torture
London Independent | December 2 2005
Pressure is mounting on the White House to answer claims that the CIA is using UK airports to flyterrorist suspects for torture in secret prisons in Europe. Elizabeth Wilmshurst, the former Foreign Office lawyer who resigned over the Iraq war, warned Tony Blair last night that he cannot duck the questions crowding in about the flights which could mean Britain has been complicit in torture.
In The Independent, Ms Wilmshurst, now a fellow of Chatham House, said the Prime Minister could not justify breaking the international convention against torture by saying the "rules of the game have changed" because of the war on terrorism...
I oppose the Patriot Act renewal. The bad outweighs the good. I am doing what little I can to stop it. 3 diehard conservative groups oppose the renewal of the Patriot Act in its current form: the American Conservative Union (David Keene), Gunowners of America and Americans for Tax Reform (Grover Norquist). Ron Paul is against it to and his PAC the Liberty Committee.
This is what I mean when I say Bush and Cheney are wrong on a lot of the smaller stuff, but they are totally right on the big picture need for national security.
Bob Barr is another one who has had problems with the Patriot Act. The ACLU also opposes it, but not many people listen to them anymore as they are now more a liberal activist Left group than a civil rights/freedom group.
Here's picture of the big picture view...apparently the executive branch does have a privileged position for looking over the terrain
CRS Report - Congress as a Consumer of Intelligence Information
BTW, that CRS report is posted over at TPM.
Robert Morrow writes:
>I oppose the Patriot Act renewal. ....This is what I mean when I say Bush and Cheney are wrong on a lot of the smaller stuff, but they are totally right on the big picture need for national security.
Let's just say the cognitive dissonance is breathtaking. Bush and Cheney are *for* renewing the PATRIOT Act and the Act is a big part of their national security push. It is also fundamentally wrongheaded and does nothing to actually improve national security.
The PATRIOT Act is part of the big picture, and like most of the big picture, it is disastrously wrong and muddled.
Reader Comments (34) - post a comment