There's a trap here to be avoided, which is the notion that there has to some sort of immediate and quantifiable damage to our intelligence apparatus as a consequence of Plame's outing for it to be significant. Let's imagine ourselves as Syrian or Iranian physicists who might be inclined to cooperate with American intelligence; would you be inclined to work with a country that outs its own agents? IMHO that sort of damage to our intelligence gathering capabilities may be more crucial that any short-term fallout as a result of Plamegate.

Does anyone slse find it a bit more than coincidental that Plame was outed while working on Iran-related nuclear issues and at the same time AIPAC/Israel-connected spies were convicted of funneling similar-type information to Israel?

Heard you on Lehrer's - great job.

Out the CIA. Up the NSA. Damn the credible intelligence and full nuclear weapons away. America don't need no stinking credible intelligence! No America does not. America has got Deadeye Dick Cheney and that should be sufficient. Who cares if America was lied to. Preemptive and aggressive war is it's own reward. Under the deft administration of one G. Bush, America has found a "free-form" foreign policy. Or in a layman's vernacular, Bush and company are making this stuff up as they wander along. Those not in subservience to the Bush-ies are traitors to America's corrupt cause.

Or maybe the administration was going for a twofer. We know that Iran has been in their sights. Why not shoot down Plame before she might produce evidence that Iran is not actually working toward a weapons program.

Good point Via. I have always thought that outing Plame was an attempt to put the fear of God into anyone in the CIA or intelligence service who might think of opposing the Bush/Cheney line on Iraq and mideast policy. This information lends another kink to the riddle. Then again, as I have (somewhat conspirasistically) suggested, maybe Plame was the one who found out that Iran-related info was being funneled to Israel/AIPAC. Her outing was punishment for that--maybe...

I seem to recall the Washington Post reporting an error on one of the Plamegate stories that had to do with Iran instead of Iraq. I believe there was an accusation appeared in the Senate Intelligence Committee report that failed to acknoledge this error. Anyone else recall this?

"If Cheney & Co. outed one of the key intelligence operations monitoring the inputs and outputs of Iran's nuclear program -- then Cheney & Co. did vast damage to our ability to know what is real and contrived inside Iran."

well duh. exactly.

One relevant reference, I think, is p. 44 of the SSCI report: "The intelligence report" based on Wilson's oral report "also said that Niger's former Ministers for Energy and Mines [redacted], Mai Manga . . . said that an Iranian delegation was interested in purchasing 400 tons of yellowcake from Niger in 1998, but said that no contract was ever signed with Iran." This one became famous because Susan Schmidt misreported it as Iraq, not Iran, in the July 10, 2004 WaPo. I'm not sure if there's another item referred to in the SSCI.

The quivering Democrats won't, but SOMEONE needs to stand up and publicly DEMAND that NO OFFENSIVE operation against Iran be undertaken by our Executive Branch of government, without an express Declaration of War by Congress. Enough is bloody well enough.

Rumsfeld and Rice and Cheney can take their cruise missiles and SHOVE THEM. The act of sabotaging probably irreplaceable CIA intelligence work in Iran, via the Office of the Vice President, and "coincidentally" turning around a few years later with a "surprise" attack on Iran's alleged bomb-making apparatus, with no one inside the CIA left who can credibly counter their propaganda, due to the sabotage, is simply treasonous. [Not to mention "just in time" for another election cycle...]

At the burn rate of $100,000 a MINUTE for the Iraq occupation alone, our national debt accumulation statistics pretty much amount to internal sabotage of our national economy, already. The bottom line here is that THERE IS NO IMMEDIATE THREAT TO THE UNITED STATES OF ANY KIND emanating from Iran. Its leader's helpful-to-the-neocons bullshit statements notwithstanding.

GET A GRIP, America. And that means YOU, journalists, and YOU, Democrats. Or pledge to pay back the obscene debt you are advocating and actively promoting with your mindless statements, yourselves. Count this citizen out of your foreign playground wargames and their untold costs. And stay away from me, because my fury has reached the point of wishing to inflict physical pain on those who are destroying this country. And I know I am not alone in that sentiment.

This is huge and incredibly depressing. Iran is a real problem, and it is doubly--no exponentially--more so now that Bush and friends invaded neighboring Iraq, screwed Iraq (thus helping Iran), and now outed Plame and her associated intelligence assets.

Impeachment no longer sounds extreme at all. I can't help but think this is one of the times when the word "treason" is appropo, and not a hyperbolic, partisan overstatement.

Steve:

The uranium mines in Niger are controlled by the French - there can be, by definition, no SECRET purchases made from there. I was under the assumption that this was well-understood by now.

It's a ridiculous assertion to make - and it makes no sense for a country that has a number of Uranium mines of its own to attempt to purchase raw materials from abroad on the basis that it would guarantee "secrecy".

Via: Why not shoot down Plame before she might produce evidence that Iran is not actually working toward a weapons program.

That's exactly what I was thinking. It may seem far fetched but I wouln't put anything past these clowns. They may even have given up on bin Laden just to use him for the fear factor. We know they refused three times to catch Zarquari just to keep the terrorist threat in Iraq meme alive.

Steve Clemons >"...If Cheney & Co. outed one of the key intelligence operations monitoring the inputs and outputs of Iran's nuclear program..."

[WAG]
Would fit well w/the Ledeen program to nuke the Temple Mount & bring on the final battle twixt "evil" & "good"

Assist Iran getting nuclear capability to be used against Israel
[/WAG]

Just what WAS that deal the ReThuglicans made w/Iran in 1980 ?

"The wind blows over the surface of the lake. In this way, the effects of the invisible are made visible." - I Ching

One other thing: Rawstory's reporting on the Plame matter has been spotty at best. And I think the reason is that they've been insufficiently careful with a set of sources, evidently mostly former intelligence officers, who have pitched them a consistenly maximalist version of the wrongdoing by the White House as well as of the direction of Fitzgerald's investigation. So without saying anything in this report is wrong, which I have no idea of, I'd just take it with a grain of salt, for the moment. Steve, I'm sure your own source cough Wilson cough is perfectly reliable on the contents of Wilson's oral report to the CIA, though it's very disappointing to hear that the written notes on which that oral report was based were destroyed, since I've suspected for a while that there may have been some significant discrepancies between what Wilson told his briefer and what the written report circulated in the administration eventually said. But against the Rawstory report we have to set Dana Priest, who I believe has reported or commented that her understanding is that the informal damage assessment conducted by the CIA revealed not that much damage. (We can set aside as not valuable Woodward's own comments to the same effect. His reporting on this matter has to be taken with several large grains of salt.) Again, not saying Rawstory is wrong, just waiting for some more solid reporting.

daCascadian: As long as Israel does not come clean on its nulcear weapons program and arsenal, any protestations by the US or Israel about Iran's desire to protect itself will seem hollow and hypocritical. BTW The US Army War College has recommendations that include helping Iran acquire nuclear energy. They also note that were Iran to have nuclear weapons (a possibility 10 years out) they could still be reasoned with.

Jeff -- very interesting comments, and useful. . .thanks. I followed Dana Priest's reporting -- and am keeping my powder dry on relative levels of damage assessment. I don't have it in front of me -- but Larry Johnson has been making the case in an opposite direction (but he might be part of the maximalist crowd you refer to)

I'm unfamiliar with Raw Story's reporting on Plame elsewhere and need to go back and look at it. This piece today rang somewhat true just because of other things I have run into that are on the circumstantial side regarding her team's work on counter-proliferation. The potential Iran focus is what interests me.

But I'd be interested in any errors that have occurred in the past on RS's reporting. You seem to know more than I do on that front.

More later -- and thanks for this -- and yes, my sources on my bit of this are pretty good.

best,

Steve Clemons

how interesting. With no info regarding what in the Raw Story article you sense is incorrect, you say you will take it with a grain of salt. How many smoking guns with this administration in this case before you get your antenae up and begin to think this is a concerted action to discredit Ms Plame? Is that threshold attainable to you at all? Should we attack Iran and they have no current weapons in place, what would you say then? Or if we attack and they have weapons that we cauterize, is that anything? I fear a population that will stand up to nothing cepting a FOX news report ordering them to stand up.

Me, I fear the worst here because the administration has shown a pattern of this type of behavior....

Dave -- I don't say that at all...I need to go back and see what I wrote, but I intended to say take with a grain of salt what i wrote and reported on -- because I needed to go back to my notes regarding Iran's connection to Niger, as communicated by Joe Wilson.

Hope that clears up your concern,

Steve Clemons

Of the many ironies of the Iraq/Iran swamp - to find that Bush Co. went after Valerie through Wilson because they already knew that Iran was the threat, not Iraq but Cheney et al couldn't override their obsession. Just a thought.

One word: Chalabbi

Steve,
Sorry for my lack of pointedness. I was referring to Jeff not to your post, it just took me a bit too long to type.... so you got to sneak in there. I think all your comments are totally in line.... Dave

Treason? Karl worried about being fitted for a tight neck-tie?

http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/ has posted my article on Treason In Wartime on their site, above, in the Resources section.

Copies of these documents were provided to former Attorney General Ashcroft and Senators Kyl and Shelby of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence without response.

The patterns of abuse continue in the so called Intelligence Community.

A copy of these documents was transmitted to Karl Rove's White House fax machine.

King Sihanouk is also in receipt.

These same individuals who provide the corrupt, fabricated "intelligence" to justify the preemptive war in Iraq are the same advisors who are feeding "intelligence" for those who will direct the preemptive nuclear war in Iraq.

Bests,
John
http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com

FedUp sez: "And stay away from me, because my fury has reached the point of wishing to inflict physical pain on those who are destroying this country. And I know I am not alone in that sentiment."

You're not alone.

Make that Iran.

Iran had entered into negotiations with Niger for the purchase of uranium BEFORE Iran discovered uranium sources domestically. In fact, Iran is a shareholder in Niger's uranium exploration company, and the negotiations with Niger were reported on Iranian radio. Thus, there's no particular significance to the alleged Iran-Niger contacts supposedly mentioned by Wilson in his report. Wouldn't it be great if you actually bother to do some Lexis searches before speculating about Iran "secret efforts" to acquire uranium??

See for example:
Iran-Niger uranium talks nearing conclusion.
BBC Monitoring Service: Middle East, 14 August 1984, 102 words, (English)
Tehran radio and the Iranian agency, reporting the visit to Niger by the head of Iran's Atomic Energy Organisation, Reza Amrollahi, said the two countries had held final consultations on the signing of a contract for the purchase of uranium ...

I don't know about you but I feel helpless today. Here we have evidences that our own gov sabotaged our own intel operations but nobody seems to care.

Does the people from red states who voted for Bush/Cheney care? I doubt it.

Why is Bush approval number still at 40% ?
Where are those 40% from ? Are they from Pluto? or maybe those 40% are from Mars.

I don't know, man. It is great that we have blogs that can expose the wrong doings by our own gov but unless people care enough to throw the corrupted officials out of office, nothing will change. Republicans control all 3 branches so nothing will ever happen when our own gov committed crimes.

If there is suspicion that the administration directed arms to Iran in order to make the case for war, then you have to wonder (as I have) whether the current President is actually a US agent. After all, he would have had contact with Republicans during the Reagan administration, as a hostage taker. His behavior is so over the top, it's almost as if he is on payroll to make Iran look bad. Maybe he is.

Marky >"...you have to wonder (as I have) whether the current President is actually a US agent..."

[snark]
The head of a country a U.S. puppet ???

Whatever would make you think that was possible ?
[/snark]

Whatever WAS that argeement between ReThuglicans & Iran in 1980 about ?

beyond the Iran-Contra stuff of course

"Those who make peaceful change impossible make violent change inevitable" - attributed to John F. Kennedy

Lah lah lah, I'm not listening!

Bob: those 40% are the ones when polled by Fox for the most important story of the year chose Aruba

Cyrus...thanks for your note. My understanding is that these uranium acquisition efforts are distinct and different. Your search on Nexis was useful to me though -- as I had searched and not found this. Best, steve clemons

"IMHO that sort of damage to our intelligence gathering capabilities may be more crucial that any short-term fallout as a result of Plamegate."

some allies have already complained about our inability to keep our mouths shut on the renditions. They've said they'll think twice before getting involved with us again because of our inability to keep secrets.

Plame doesn't seem to me to have been that high up of an agent so I wonder how secret and critical anything she was working on was. Not that that should matter if she was truly covert but it doesn't look to me like there was any great damage. Certainly tipping AQ off that we're wiretapping anyone we know of who deals with them was more damaging from a national security standpoint. That's the leak that bothers me most becuase I think that loss of American lives is actually quite likely because the people who need to be followed now know to change their communication methods.

OT: Eric Alterman has posted a piece on Chuck Hagle and John McCain. Eric joins those of us who think that McCain is a big phony. Here's some of it:

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3449870/

"...Now look at McCain, here. It’s pathetic that this is the media’s idea of a heroically plain-spoken politician. As Media Matters points out, McCain couldn’t get better press from the insider media if he had pictures of all of them having sex with, well, matters of taste preclude from finishing that sentence. They ask, “Has any political figure ever been the beneficiary of the kind of relentlessly positive, often-sycophantic media coverage Republican Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) has enjoyed for as long as we can remember?” Let us count the ways, here:

While other politicians face regular media second-guessing and cynicism about their motives and consistency, McCain is presented as a paragon of virtue, tirelessly and selflessly toiling away to make America a better place. His "years of work" for lobbying reform are mentioned; his refusal to investigate Jack Abramoff's ties to lawmakers is not. Lobbying reform is described as a "very personal issue" to him; his own reliance on campaign cash generously provided by lobbyists with business before his committee and his frequent use of corporate jets is ignored. And when his involvement in the infamous Keating Five scandal is mentioned, it tends to be by way of explaining why he is so passionate about reform - the fact that the Senate Ethics Committee found that he had "exercised poor judgment" in the scandal is less often mentioned.

Nor is McCain as consistent on campaign finance reform as his publicists in the news media would have you believe. Think Progress explains that McCain has now flip-flopped (don't hold your breath waiting for the media to use that phrase to describe McCain) on public financing of elections:

In December 2002, appearing on PBS' NOW with Bill Moyers, McCain spoke enthusiastically about expanding public financing of elections, saying Arizona's public financing law could "absolutely" be used as a model for the whole nation.

[...]

Now, he is refusing to even discuss public financing and attacking others for even considering it..."

There's surprisingly little new information about Iran's nuclear program in this report. Iran has sought, and continues to seek, uranium from sources abroad since the Shah started the country's nuclear program. Significant indigenous uranium ore deposits were discovered in the late 1970s. Iran declared to to the IAEA in 2000 that it had embarked in an enrichment program. International excitement about that program was ramped up after an "exile" group announced in August 2002 -- about the same time the Niger yellowcake forgery was being stovepiped through OSP -- that Iran had a heavy water plant in Arak and a nuclear fuel "production" facility in Natanz. Last March, Iran opened those facilities to the international press, and precious little indicating a bulk production process was there to be seen.

If Valerie Plame and her office was working primarily on detecting Iran WMD issues at the time she was outed in July 2003, there doesn't seem to have been dramatic developments to study, as the Iranian program hadn't amounted to much, and was by all responsible accounts a decade away from any sort of building an actual bomb. Likely, that's exactly what she was reporting to her superiors -- which wasn't what the White House wanted to hear.

At the same time that the Niger yellowcake forgery was making its way to the Oval Office, Larry Franklin's contacts at the Israeli Embassy was making "suggestions" for changes to Pentagon documents about the Iranian WMD program. Some of this information made its way into reports that Franklin, the DoD Iran desk officer, prepared for his superiors. Franklin also travelled to Rome with an OSP coleague in December 2001, where he met with Manoucher Ghorbanifar and Mike Ledeen. This group has been linked to the network that introduced the Niger Yellowcake forgery into US files.

Franklin's primary contact at the Israeli Embassy "FO-3" in the indictment, was Naor Gilon, the Mossad Chief of Station, who fled DC when the FBI investigation was leaked. See, Lawrence Franklin Indictment, pp. 23-34, para. 6.

I would suggest that the the Niger yellowcake forgery was Track 1 of a disinformation program to justify U.S. military action against Iraq. Furthermore, much of allegations about Iranian WMDs, such as the August 2002 opposition group disclosures, are Track 2 of the same operation to draw the US into a widening general war in the Middle East. Same M.O. and group of perpetrators behind both deadly deception campaigns.

Cyrus, you're right about the Iran-Niger dealings being insignificant and irrelevant.

I would think that this piece by Raw Story is another attempt to turn up the tension levels on Iran in the run up to an attack. We have to consider the "source" of Raw Story's information which could be a propaganda ploy now that Porter Goss is DCI, and clearly a Bush cheerleader.

We've seen this ploy used before with the run up to the attack on Iraq, though now the lies concerning that have been laid bare. Need we be bamboozled once again with a similar tactic? Not if we look further at recent and little publicized events.

I might point out something which has been overlooked on here and that is the case of Asher Karni.

Karni was recently convicted of smuggling nuclear triggers from a Massachusetts company, first to South Africa, where he lived and worked for 30 years, and then to Pakistan by way of Oman.

Karni, an Israeli national and suspected Mossad operative, was working with South African military on related matters to their own nuclear development program for many years and presumably was also acting in collusion with the suspected Israeli collaboration with the South African government in this endeavor.

Once the nuclear triggers were gotten into Pakistan, connections had been arranged with former operatives of the A.Q. Khan network who had previous contacts with the Iranians.

However, Plame's counter-proliferation network was tracking Karni and had an operative in South Africa who reported on this activity. This operative seems to have been compromised after Plame was outed.

In any event, with the work of Plame's group the Pakistani ISI intercepted and recovered the entire shipment of triggers, which are really electronic modules used for nuclear detonations.

The outing of Plame more and more seems like the work of the White House Iraq Group (WHIG) and it seems as though Plame's group was getting too close for comfort to the true perpetrators of this nuclear proliferation.

These facts seem to point to the nuclear trigger episode as a "hurry up" attempt to provide Iran with incriminating evidence as a means to justify the attack on Iran's nuclear facilities.

This all points to the real sources of WMD proliferation and global terrorism. They are one and the same and we need look no further than the Bush Crime Family and their connections to the Saudis and also the Zionist criminal cabal whose intentions toward both Iraq and Iran have been clear for many years and pushed by the arch neocon, Michael Ledeen, just to name one.

Follow the money trail and it will lead to the truth. They are all interconnected by this one element.

In Darth Cheney's book, there is no damage to our intelligence gathering worth noting because the decision to use pre-emptive force has nothing to do with real intelligence. The use of force in the Middle East is what they want to do, so eliminating the intelligence gatherting team that might contradict the war machine is damage control in the play book for wall to wall war. Peace is not profitable to the Defense Industry. And, you cannot give out no bid contracts to your friends to rebuild a country if you don't wreck it first.

Of course, now that the Supreme Court is packed with Justices who think the current occupant of the Oval Office can basically do whatever he wants, there will be no way to compell this Gang at the Top to testify under oath or submit documents, etc.

Sig Heil, everybody. Looks to me like the Dems are practising their goose steps instead of launching a major attack.

THESE THUGS IN CHARGE NOW WILL CRUSH YOU LIKE A BUG IF SOMEONE DON'T FALL INTO LOCKSTEP AND GO ALONG WITH CORRUPTION AND COVER UP OF THE EVERDAY POLICES OF BUSH CHENEY AND REPUBLICAN SO CALLED LEADERSHIP.

Avaroo, I think you meant to say that Plame just had a desk job.. or is that statement no longer operative?

Kathleen >"...Peace is not profitable to the Defense Industry. And, you cannot give out no bid contracts to your friends to rebuild a country if you don't wreck it first..."

The Ben Laden Group, the Carlyle Group & Halliburton come to mind...

must be others I suppose

"War is the easy part" - Anthony Zinni - General U.S.M.C. (retired)

Jeff: Can you point where RS made errors in their reporting? I have been following them for a while and I must say that the only people who point out RS as "spotty" are the very people who want this information buried. So unless you can point to a specific piece of writing where there was an error made (not spelling by the way) and not corrected, I suggest you sit this one out and let the grown ups discuss the facts.

Perhaps, too, we ought to consider the OTHER White House intelligence leak and the possible ramifications in the 7/7 London bombings!:

http://petitiononline.com/noorkhan/petition.html

Anyone ever see the Ali G episode where he interviews James Baker, and asks him "what if they screw up ya know? you say "bomb Iraq" and the radio cuts out and they hear "bomb Iran"?

Its ominous that reality continuously overtakes satire.

All you good people. And yet no one here has remembered Wayne Madsen detailed this Busheney treason six months ago?

We got your insider (ex-NSA) intelligence official right here -- www.WayneMadsenReport(dot)com

If it is a new experience to be us turning the worm to eavesdrop on them, then Madsen's website is the highest thrill ride in the amusement park. He deserves the blogocracy's adoration that daily Kos and Talking Points Memo and, more and more, Raw Story and BradBlog and here -- The Washington Note, are attracting.

Wayne Madsen Report also deserves a ton o'Blog donations as the best (other opinions welcome) intelligence ferret putting it out there -- do notice: NO condition of anonymity for himself -- and the best hope we've got. His website is balky and jerky, but by damn it has been pounded on by the CIA hacks. Furthermore, he posts some of his personal hardship under seige by the murderous super-supremacists, like Gestapo squared. Us bloggeratti could help save his and our own lives, and posterity, by sharing and passing around Madsen's name and wrapping him in a blanket of famous to partly protect him.

This links to WMR archives for last August. (Other archives at bottom of WMR home page.)

In August WMR broke the story exactly as above, adding a broader scope than Iran and Iraq as the field of Valerie Plame / Brewster Jennings's work, to see that the CIA's tracking of illegal w.m.d. sales was following salesman jokes like footprints right into this council chambers and undisclosed bunkers of this administration. Busheney wants the detectives off their tail, that's why they blew the cover of Brewster Jennings, (Wilson retaliation was mere icing on the cake).
The entry to mainly read in the archives breaks the story at this dateline:
July 31, 2005 / August 1, 2005 **** Search it down.

There are follow-up entries on dates Aug. 6, 13, 20, (at least). Also in the August '05 archives is his personal danger notes.

This works by compiling our findings and sources, gleaning the robust grains of information from the chatter, and Madsen is the robuster of all busters -- his stuff alone can indict and convict every blasted neo-con Republickin' -- we MUST CIRCULATE it.

But blogspeed is quick as a one-nighter, and I feel better now just knowing some of 'you youngsters' are going to pick up the scent from this, and hound The Fright House criminals out of the Evil Office and run 'em up an impeachment tree.

Then, to an Impeachment Congress: very simply, very quietly, completely ruthless, with the stroke of your lawmaking pen through a single budget line, abolish the CIA.

Google Wayne Madsen's work if you want to jam the transmission on that search engine.

Kathleen,

"In Darth Cheney's book, there is no damage to our intelligence gathering worth noting because the decision to use pre-emptive force has nothing to do with real intelligence."

I think the administration's position is actually that the decision to use force was based on 19 UNSC resolutions over 12 years, with the onus on Saddam to PROVE that he had done with his WMD what he said he had. And before anyone jumps, I'm simply stating the case the administration actually makes. My own opinion is that Plame's outting, whatever it was, even if she was undercover, wasn't terribly significant, at least from what we know to date.

"The use of force in the Middle East is what they want to do, so eliminating the intelligence gatherting team that might contradict the war machine is damage control in the play book for wall to wall war."

Let's not forget that intelligence under President Clinton said the same thing it did under Bush.

"Peace is not profitable to the Defense Industry."

Actually, peace was hugely profitable to the defense industry throughout Ronald Reagan's 2 terms.

"And, you cannot give out no bid contracts to your friends to rebuild a country if you don't wreck it first."

Actually, you can do exactly that. Any of the companies routinely accused of getting no bid contracts could easily get them to rebuild the tsunami torn areas of India and Indonesia and just about any war-torn African country.

NEW Cheney Hunt Image

NATURAL BORN KILLERS

Go Get It At...

http://www.RogerART.com

FREE 2 Copy, PASS IT ON

Thank U, RogerART.com

Cheney will go down in history as the first American to be in a corrupt administration AND be the largest war profiteer at the same time.

Then shoots another Republican in the face. To bad his face won't be in our grandchildren's textbooks, too scarey.

Sibel Edmonds has long suspected that Brewster Jennings was intentionally outed because they were getting too close to uncovering an arms/drug trafficking network through Turkey - specifically with the help of Feith and Perle (and Grossman)

I cannot but be struck by the eering similarities between the incidents at Chappaquiddik and Armstrong, Texas. The silence following the incident,the effort to get a friend to deal with the police, The running away of the partys involved. The confusion about what happened; the facts suggested by Katherina Armstrong ie that Whittingto did not let Chaney know he was rejoining the group(how did she know that,. she was in a jeep). Was Chaney wearing ear muffs?
Was Chaney having an affair with the US Ambassador to Switzerland who was the third person in the group?So many innuendoes so few facts
Very ,very, interesting.

Cheney having an AFFAIR? LOL, that is just too funny. What woman in her right mind would have an affair with Dick Cheney?

So, first it was Iraq, now Iran. According to the CIA sources, Plame was NOT covert at the time her name was mentioned in the press. Further, the TWO YEAR investigation of the issue resulted in a similar finding...that Plame/Wilson was not covert, thus mentioning that she worked at the CIA, on any subject, is not a leak any more than indicating she worked at WalMart. The info that HAS been leaked that HAS impacted our national security is the recent leak to the NYT reporters on the foreign intel gathering we were doing through the NSA. It still amazes me that we ignore the real issues in order to paint our favorite political picture.

I'm skeptical on the timing of this information. Also, if Iran was a "really big problem," why was Iraq invaded first. I view this is as an effort to get people to ignore the issue: [a] Is Iran really doing anything; and focus on an irrelevant issue: [b] Maybe Plame was onto something. This is a red herring with respect to whether Iran really is or is not doing anything.

Nothing I've seen suggests Iran is doing anything. [ See more: Click ] As was the case with Iraq, if DoD has "bonafide" information about Iraq, why haven't they turned that information over to the IAEA? There's no reason for Iran to cooperate when the world is accusing it of simply developing alternative energy, as Britain wishes it had before running down its gas supplies.

I look at the information about Plame in this context: [ Click ] Part of the White House "divide and assimilate your opposition." This does nothing to address the FISA violations, grounds for removal as is the Iraq WMD-unlawful invasion.

Yes, Bush is in trouble, and he’s worried. Did you know there's case law supporting the contention that the President is in rebellion, and the States can issue a proclamation forcing the House to vote to impeach? [ Click ] This approach cannot be buried in committee; and the results of this vote -- will tell voters whether they can or cannot trust their congress. [ Click ] The RNC is in a no-win situation, so don't let these curiosities with Plame and Iraq WMD divert your attention from the needed State proclamations and House action.

"Interested": You might be interested to know that your information with regard to Mrs. Wilson's job status at the relevant time(s) is FALSE. Special Counsel Fitzgerald has flatly verified that Mrs. Wilson was officially "covert" at the CIA, in accordance with the overseas-within-the-last-five-years rule, in her capacity as a then-classified CIA Agent.

See the recent releases of relevant documents in the case for further details.

But then, ascertaining the facts isn't really the point of your comment, is it?

Perhaps outing Plame was specifically intended to prevent reliable information from being gathered on Iran? After all, this Administration has shown the readiness to go to war on false pretexts before. I know, that's giving a lot of credit, but never underestimate evil.

Perhaps outing Plame was specifically intended to prevent reliable information from being gathered on Iran? After all, this Administration has shown the readiness to go to war on false pretexts before. I know, that's giving a lot of credit, but never underestimate evil.

Dave, Moody - Setting aside your absurd tone, I could try to find the best examples from Rawstory of Plame stories that either are yet to pan out or that have been proven false. Oh no I couldn't, because Rawstory's archives don't go later than November 21, 2004, and anyway they move and delete stories too, so good luck. Does that sound like a reliable source? And far from wanting the information Rawstory publishes to be buried, I want it to be true. Hence it's disappointment that drives my skepticism. If that doesn't make me a grownup, Moody, oh well. And doesn't it make you a little bit suspicious that the sources in today's article say other NOCs have been compromised, but the sources won't say how? Or are you going to take the classic intelligence community dodge and say they are just protecting sources and methods?

What if it could be established that treason had been committed by illegally wiretapping Ambassador Wilson's phone conversations?

--sources and methods by Machiavelli

..... next bush told us, Osama HATED our right to disagree with one another...... then they outted Valerie Plame.

Jeff: there is a thing called Google you know? But let me find for you their editor's own letter on the topic, which provides the list of their reporting on the topic and what has been confirmed by other sources. Your straw man is flailing about.

Here is the link:
http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Editors_Note_Examining_Raw_Storys_leak_1215.html

Amazing what Google can provide.

A few points all you America-haters seem to be missing:

1: Valerie Plame is responsible for any misfortune that befell her because her husband snuck up on the White House from behind.

2: At no time did the White House do anything wrong. Any suggestion that it did is just plain stupid.

3: The so-called "injury" done to Ms. Plame was superficial.

4: The White House's primary concern was for Ms. Plame's well-being.

5: It was not the White House's responsibility to disclose its knowledge of the matter.

Jeff, my remarks were neither absurd or smarmy. Rather I was challenging you to set a bar, or draw a line in the sand. I was asking you to explain what it would take informationwise, for you to decide that the Wilson/Plame smear was an important issue that should not be left on the back burner. When I read the hyper link Moody provided to Raw Story, I find their claims a heck of alot more credible than say the Washington Post or the Washington Times. I suggest it is imperative that Americans come off the fence and make determinations if this time of governing is acceptable. If it is okay for you, so be it. It is a free country (to some degree). But if the facts are true, do they give you pause to supporting the continuation of this regime. That is my question my friend. It is no attack. And might I add, I don't feel you have actually answered the question.....

what are your sources, NH Dem?

I basically don't agree with any of your points.

As for the American-haters slur....

is that all you got?

for me, real Americans can debate, disagree, and still not personally attack someone.

Would you not think it inappropriate for me to call you a warmonger?

I would not do that because it is just not right. You should take a deep breathe before posting such hateful words.

Avaroo,

Yes of course the Defense Industry can make money during peace time, but only in preparation for war. At some point stockpiling doesn't work, you have to blow something up, to justify making more. And yes, one can give no bid contracts to friends to reconstruct after natural disaters, but who can count on Mother Nature to supply that steady stream of profits? Only in wartime can we justify commandeering another country's natural resources and "privatizing" them, or should I say "piratizing" them?

2: At no time did the White House do anything >wrong. Any suggestion that it did is just plain >stupid.

Yeah that's right. Revealing a covert CIA operative might technically be immoral, but heck if it didn't hurt anyone (and who knows, it may not have) and it helps Bush get a little political mileage, who really cares? If you want a serious crime, lets talk about lying about a blow job. Rule of law! Rule of law!

3: The so-called "injury" done to Ms. Plame was superficial.

That's right. So who even cares? She might have lost her job and well OK, technically her life may have been put in jeopardy. But you have to way that against Bush's right to lie if it helps him politically. Get your priorities straight for god's sakes!

>4: The White House's primary concern was for Ms. >Plame's well-being.

Of course. If there's anything the Bush administration cares about its the well being of people. Why else would they have to kill 100,000 of them to put money in their buddies pockets. How can you say they don't care about their cronies! Makes no sense at all, I mean, if their willing to do all that.

>5: It was not the White House's responsibility to >disclose its knowledge of the matter.

Of course not. When have they ever disclosed anything? Why don't you Amerika haters just crawl off somewhere and die. Your pathetic. I'm off to watch some more Fox News and turn on O'Reilly and Limbaugh.

All posters, I submit, should consider that there is perhaps a cold war developing between the CIA and its related intel agencies, and the Executive Branch. This tension goes all the way back to the creation of the CIA in 1947.

Odd kind of 'checks and balances' here. The current White House wants to control information in a major way. CIA resists. White House casts a stone. CIA retaliates.

It seems no coincidence to me that most of the undercover revelations being offered to the press lately, are from CIA sources. This increases not long after the WH gets Congress to join in and blame everything from 9/11 to current Iraq on bad intelligence.

The placement of Porter Goss in a position of control over all intel agencies, is the Administration taking a wrestling hold around their necks. The stakes are increasing.

Now--we begin to hear bigger secrets unearthed. Fasten your seat belts. In the end--the intelligence agency wins. Quietly.

I was asking you to explain what it would take informationwise, for you to decide that the Wilson/Plame smear was an important issue that should not be left on the back burner.

Dave - This made me laugh, because, without exaggeration, I think I am as obsessed as anyone in American with the war on the Wilsons, and I don't need to be convinced by Rawstory or anything else that it is an important issue. I am fully and utterly convinced of that; I wish it were a front-page story each and every day (no kidding). I also believe I have as good a grip on the (public) facts of the case as anyone.

Moody (Larisa? John? Jason? is that you?) - I've got nothing against Rawstory; I just don't know when I can rely on their reporting. I followed your link to their self-justification, and aside from all the stuff that has yet to pan out with regard to what Fitzgerald's investigation about (and which we'll just have to see about, as with the Hannah and Wurmser business), one of the first articles I looked at is a good example of the way rawstory presents things in a misleading light: in this case, Fitzgerald's alleged renewed attention to WHIG is presented as a major new and indicative twist in the investigation, whereas we know that turned out not to be the case as far as the first grand jury investigation was concerned. Again, there's no question rawstory has gotten some good scoops. But these things don't cancel each other out. In this case, i wouldn't be surprised if it's true that Plame worked a lot on Iran, and that's important. Some of the other info, like about the damage assessment, is presented in such a vague way, and seems so obviously motivated by the desire to push back against the reaction to some of Fitzgerald's statements in his recent court filings and in the letters released by Libby's team, I don't know what to think. So I want to hear more from other sources. Not such a big deal, I would have thought. But evidently I've betrayed something or other, in your view.

"Yes of course the Defense Industry can make money during peace time, but only in preparation for war."

Not "can", DOES. And no, not only in preparation for war.

"At some point stockpiling doesn't work, you have to blow something up, to justify making more."

You seem to think that there's no changes or developments in defense. Do you think we're "stockpiling" circa 1945 weapons?

"And yes, one can give no bid contracts to friends to reconstruct after natural disaters, but who can count on Mother Nature to supply that steady stream of profits?"

As long as Mother Nature churns out kooks like Amadinejad, forever.

"Only in wartime can we justify commandeering another country's natural resources and "privatizing" them, or should I say "piratizing" them?"

That's never justifiable, but to my knowledge we've never commandeered any nation's natural reources.

Avaroo,

No, not circa 1945, but today's weapons. All those 'smart bombs' used in the 1991 Persian Gulf War had to be replaced and you know it, so enough with the coy crap.

True, commandeering other nations' natural resources is never justified, but done, nevertheless. Start with Native Americans and what happened to the natural resources on their land and then move to places like Iraq where their oil industry is being changed from State run, to private American company run, at gunpoint, a gun, which will need to be replaced with sickening regularity. But perhaps you know nothing about our dealings with native nations and how we "improve' other's way of life by stealing from them, always at gunpoint, I might add.

"No, not circa 1945, but today's weapons."

which are not the same as tomorrow's weapons. Get the picture?

"All those 'smart bombs' used in the 1991 Persian Gulf War had to be replaced"

It's highly unlikely we're making the exact same bombs in 2005 we made in 1991. Think about it.

"True, commandeering other nations' natural resources is never justified, but done, nevertheless."

Name one case where it was done by Americans.

"Start with Native Americans and what happened to the natural resources on their land"

I am a native american and I can tell you quite clearly who it was who commandeered the resources in the new world, Europeans. Who DO have a history of commandeering the resources of others.

"and then move to places like Iraq where their oil industry is being changed from State run, to private American company run, at gunpoint"

Really? Let's see some proof.
Where are all these commandeered Iraqi resources? The local Wal-Mart is completely out of large metal cans labelled "Iraqi Oil".

Avaroo,

The issue is not that the exact same weapons are reproduced, but that weapons must always be produced in greater and greater amounts, whatever circa.
Neocons have this reflexive penchant to myopically split all the wrong hairs, while ignoring the big bold facts.
If you are Native American, it sounds like in name only, or what traditionals would call an Apple, because you have no knowledge of the US-Trust Policy for Native Americans and exactly how it operates. It is not "Europeans" who are currently ripping off Native Tribes, it is the US gov't and companies like Peabody Coal in Arizona, who pay 25 cents a ton for coal to Hopi and Navajo and sell it for vastly more. The 25 cents is then kept in Washington, in a "trust account" and cannot be spent by the Tribe without the approval of the Secretary of the Interior. This wonderful deal was carefully crafted by an attorney assigned to the tribes by the Secretary of the Interior. He was a former US Attorney and who incidentally was also simultaneously representing Peabody Coal Co. No worry about conflict of interest here. I could name many other instances with other tribes and other resources. The same is happening in Iraq as their oil industry changes from state run to deals handed out to oil companies from the countries who are the "Coalition of the Willing'. Willing, indeed.

The issue is very much that newer weapons are produced all the time.

You do realize of course that if Europeans had never come to the new world, that native american resources would still belong to native americans.

Now, I'll ask again, do you have any evidence of Americans commandeering the resources of a foreign nation? Yes or no. And where exactly are those US-commandeered Iraqi resources?

Some one needs to FOIA the details of the WH and their agents on the Executive Order "Updates" on classified information.

When was this activities to change the Executive Order begun? Who was involved? Why was it begun?

When does conspiricy to out an American Intellegence Agent turn into acts of Treason against the United States?