Two thoughts:

Rumsfeld; Says anything to cover his ass.

Cheney; "I've spent [?] years in "public service". Well, two thoughts on this Dick - 0ne, you chose to do it and it sure didn't hurt you financially, so was it a poor decision on your part? Two - what do you want, a gold medal, a purple heart?

Picking up on Steve's first sentence: "I think that they hate us for not making clear that "their" lives matter." . . . . .

I am convinced that they hate us because of what we do, and because they see that our deeds do not match our words. The U.S. is so goddamned convinced that it is "good" (has all the best ideas about democracy, freedom, etc.) that it then follows that whatever it does must be right. The next corollary is that if the recipient doesn't appreciate all this wonderful stuff it is clearly his fault.

This inability to imagine that the person on the other side of the table (or, in this case, at the other end of the barrel of a rifle) might just have a different view of this is simply stunning in its ramifications.

This is where I look around for those "patriotic conservatives" to make sure we are supporting our troops-not with stickers on cars-but with equiptment, plans and strategy.

I look and look but only find wingnuts who swear by Rush & Coulter and do not seem capable of independent thought.

It is these times I am saddest.

"Who is to blame for this?"

You are Steve and every other American.

I was cruising around yesterday, and read a blog post that put the perverbial light bulb over my head. The blogger (I'm going to be running around like a crazy women till I find it again) said that Bush expressed a personal and presidential "manifest destiny" sentiment right after 9/11 and he's been operating under that delusion ever since. He can't hear or see anything that doesn't conform to his personal vision of himself and his place in this world.

Rumsfeld has been a fatal failure from the beginning. But even he knows a wack job when he sees one. In this case, he's milking a hallucinating Bush for all he's worth and the frightening thing is, so are a lot of other people.

It won't be over until the dems win back the congress and shut off the money. Period.

Well you reap what you rape...

What happens when these nutbag contractors leave Iraq and return to the US? Will they become more sanguine or more sanguine?

My prediction: Some of them will make the DC Sniper look like an amateur.

Bush's Iraq mess not only has created more terrorists, it has created more sociopaths.

Just one more finge benefit to add to Cheney's war bonnet.

i doubt if bush is going to fire rumsfeld... if he did, he would only be leaving the door open to his own accountability... besides, he's in total denial and appears to be digging himself in deeper and deeper... honest to god, steve, i don't think the man is redeemable...

here's a snippet from yesterday's ny daily news...

**For the moment, Bush has dismissed discreetly offered advice from friends and loyalists to fire Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and bring back longtime confidant Karen Hughes from the State Department to shore up his personal White House staff.

"He thinks that would be an admission he's screwed up, and he can't bring himself to do that," a former senior staffer lamented.

[...]

A card-carrying member of the Washington GOP establishment with close ties to the White House recently encountered several senior presidential aides at a dinner and came away shaking his head at their "no problems here" mentality.

"There is just no introspection there at all," he said in exasperation. "It is everybody else's fault - the press, gutless Republicans on the Hill. They're still in denial."**

bush is certifiably dysfunctional, just the kind of behavior you'd expect from a dry drunk - sulking, moody, stubborn as hell, not listening to anybody, determined not to admit to any weakness or vulnerability, in complete denial, digging himself deeper and deeper... it's a very disturbing portrait of the man holding the most powerful position in the world...

http://takeitpersonally.blogspot.com/2005/11/from-deep-within-white-house-bunker.html

"Rumsfeld has been a fatal failure from the beginning. But even he knows a wack job when he sees one. In this case, he's milking a hallucinating Bush for all he's worth and the frightening thing is, so are a lot of other people.
"

Posted by vachon

I believe Bush is incapable of the depth of thought required to actually formulate, or even understand, an actual PLAN of ANY complex nature. Incompetants and opportunists stay in their positions because Bush is unable to understand their stated policies and objectives, and he is TERRIFIED to lose their counsel. He simply is unable to comrehend complex ideas. It should be obvious to all that malleability is the "attribute" that the neocons wanted in their front man, and Monkey boy filled the bill admirably. Bush HAS TO accept the advise of his keepers, because if he didn't he would be frozen with inaction, unable to conceive of or comprehend alternatives. If Bush's "advisors" go down we are going to be left with JUST Crawford's idiot in the White House, and the true scope of Bush's mental handicaps will become increasingly apparent. If Bush worked in a 7/11, he is the kind of employee that would need to be TOLD to restock the empty Potato Chip shelf. Not just once, but every time it became empty.

Speaking of Abu Ghraib, the remaining photos and videos were supposed to be released several days ago. Why haven't they been released, and why haven't there been any stories explaining why that has not happened?
Steve, I'll bet that you have sources that can leak some of this material to you. Call in some chits and get this stuff out, if you can.

Its extremely important to bear in mind that Bush had Blackwell Security patrolling the streets of New Orleans with fully automatic M-16s while the guns of the New Orleans RESIDENTS were being confinscated. Some of the Blackwell employees carrying these weapons were not even United States citizens.

Think about it. In laymen's terms, Bush had a private militia carrying illegal weapons POLICING the streets of an American city while the citizens were being disarmed. And WE were paying for it.

"Speaking of Abu Ghraib, the remaining photos and videos were supposed to be released several days ago. Why haven't they been released, and why haven't there been any stories explaining why that has not happened?
Steve, I'll bet that you have sources that can leak some of this material to you. Call in some chits and get this stuff out, if you can."

Posted by marky

And where the hell are the "missing" two thousand pages of the Taguba report that was promised, by Rumsfeld, to be turned over during the Abu Ghraib hearings?

Probably in the same black hole our Fourth Estate was sucked into.

Steve,
thank u for REMINDING the country about the torture and prisoner abuse. Thank u for making the connection between that kind of abusive behavior and the consequences that has in fueling the hatred they have for us. For certain Woodward and the Washington Post won't REMIND the public of this.

keep it up!!! seriously!!

Read a wire report yesterday that BushCo is now embracing a Biden articulated timed withdrawal plan as it's own! Also read part of a Sy Hersh interview with Blitzer (I think) that conforms with vachon's views above, and in which Hersh also says the new plan is to support the Iraqi forces with bombing, a development that distresses Air Force commanders who don't trust Iraqis to direct the bombings toward legitimate targets.

In a post awhile back Steve said there are many in DC who view Rumseld as mad. I'd say the same about Bush and Cheney -- how many other madmen can there be?

Don't forget Bush and Cheney as well as Rumsfeld. Rumsfeld really only does Cheney's bidding.

Link for the Sy Hersh stuff I mentioned in comment above. Apologies for not having included it then:

http://dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/11/27/16340/139

As far as I can tell, the consistent pattern with Bush is that he digs himself into a hole and then his dad sends someone to lift him out once he's below head height. Bush simply doesn't have Clintonian powers of recovery, or the necessary intellectual capacities to restore his political fortunes now - he is largely at the mercy of events that he cannot control.

I get the impression that daddy ain't sending his boys to the rescue no more, which means that there are another 3 years of junior floundering in the presidency. Frankly, it's bizarre that we have to dust off the old Kremlinology studies manuals to decode the significance of the Clinton-Bush pere filiation.

It's possible that someone will re-assert some control after the 2006 elections, and we'll see both Cheney and Rumsfeld removed from office - Condi as VP and god knows who as Secdef - but given that disaster sticks to this presidency like flies to shit, I'm skeptical that even personnel changes at this point are going to improve the situation, and will just enmire those suckered in to clean house.

It's pretty obvious, even from across the Atlantic, that instability and drift are emerging as the near-term political order in Washington.

"It won't be over until the dems win back
the congress and shut off the money. Period."

...which won't happen til we stop letting
Diebold decide who goes to Congress.

I personally don't care if we elect democrats
or republicans, but I do strongly care that
there is an honest count of the vote.

Diebold voting machines can be manipulated
on site in 90 seconds by an amateur. Their
vote tabulators, which count our absentee
ballots, can also be rigged easily.

Vote tampering must be addressed now, well
in advance of the 2006 elections.

Is it possible that Rumsfeld and Cheney were taken to a secret location sometime after the Ford Admin, or maybe as late as the '90s, and were brainwashed into becoming not the Manchurian Candidates, but the Radical Muslim candidates? Or maybe it was the Manchurian Candidates after all, since China is potentially our biggest competitor for scarce resources like oil.

It is hard to see how anyone could have succeeded in destroying American credibility and both the perception and reality of American military might so thoroughly if they had set out to do it deliberately. It is hard to imagine they really meant to do it, which leaves the Manchurian hypothesis as the only viable one.

POA is right on. Rove is going to be indicted at some point, thus, it would have been politically wise to boot him when it became evident to anyone with a functioning brain he was neck deep in the Plame outing. Bush cannot do that because he is helpless without Rove and his other advisors. It appears that Bush is only adept at reading speeches written for him in front of pre-screened or military audiences. As we have read, Bush cannot make decisions, and is tragically uninformed to the point that any decisions he does make would be suspect. His looking into a man's soul thing (Putin, Kerik, etc) always makes me laugh. What a perfect mark for the neo-con-men and religious shills. I would assume that any changes he has made were recommended to him by Cheney and Rove. H. Miers is probably the one decision he made himself and we see how well that worked out. Rumsfeld, Rice, etc. will be in office as long as they suit the needs of Cheney and the others who do the decision making. Wanna bet that they didn't want K. Hughes around the white house since she is loyal to Bush and not their plan?. Better to have her at State making a fool of herself than telling George that Dick is looking out for number one

Hatred for the Americans is not rocket science. The Middle East hates America because of America's blind support for the apartheid policies of Israel. Israel works ethnic cleansing on the Palestinian people and America supports it. America wages preemptive war on Iraq and without defensible cause and the Middle East hates it. America detains and tortures innocent Muslim men, women, and children and the Middle East hates it. It is American foreign policy that the Middle East hates and not the American people.

The "Justice for all" piece of marble falling off the Supreme Court today is a creepy metaphor.

There are a number of "conspiracy theories" weaving MK-ULTRA-Manchurian-Candidate-nazi-Satanic cult threads into the Bush governments deceptive ambitions and predatory designs touching on Illuminati rooted neofasicist sects and ideologies, torture and particularly sexually deviant torture cults and propensities, and mindcontrolled 'Men who Stare at Goats" ninja, or jedi warriors operating in, and for various blackworld militia's whose single purpose is protecting and advancing the best interests of oil, energy, defense, pharmacuetical, and finance cronies and oligarchs - all who curiously root to what is called by Indira Singh the - "Bush Crime family cabal".

Conspiracy theories aside, - and accepting that most people simply dismiss these threads as nonesense - little it seems is beyond the capacity of the Bush government warmongers and profiteers.

One particular and quite spooky issue that is rarely reported on, investigated, or mentioned in the socalled MSM are the many interpenetrating connections with Bush government cronies and officials,- including Cheney and the empty suit posing as commander in chief, and Bush government oligarchs - with the burgeoning Private Miltary Company industry.

The Private Military Company industry is woefully under-regulated, under-scrutinized, under-reviewed, under-reported, and wildly well funded.

Literally billions of our tax dollars are secretly funnelled into an industry that has expanded significantly in the last seven years and basically operates in secret, beyond the purview of congress, outside the reach of the courts, and in murky unregulated, unscrutinized, un-reviewed blackworld territories. The Private Military Company industries legal and ethical boundaries, and the actual objectives, missions, CONTRACTS, proceedures, assets, operations, and LOYALTIES remain a deep and nebulous mystery and a very well kept secret. An unknown unknown if you will.

And again, the truly creepy aspect of this burgeoning and exceedingly obscenely lucrative industry is its' odd connectivity with the "Bush Crime Familty Cabal", and/or and cronies and oligarchs in, or beholden to the Bush government. Follow the money!!!

The unholy activities of USIS mentioned in the recent LA Times expose' with ties to the Carlyle Group, - and Wackenthut's blackworld biolab and underground bunkers on the Cabazon Indian reservation and other deep blackworld operations (Area-51), and Ptech's strange Saudi/911 connects and capabilities - all have horrible and quite spooky commonalities; all are deeply connected to the "Bush Crime Family Cabal", all involve extra-governmental deep blackword, particularly horrifically nefarious activities, all have bodies dead and rotting in the wake of investigations or whistleblowing, and all are conventiently kept out of the mainstream.

These three Private Military Companies are only a tiny tip, of an enormous iceberg.

There is however a strange convergence of data emerging now that once investigated - even on a cursory basis - render all the conspiracy theories less outlandish, but far more horrifying.

The Bush government is hated because it's ambitions, designs, operations, activities, and individuals ruthlessly betray the public trust, pervert the principles that once defined our democracy, advance and protect Bush government cronies and oligarchs general welfare exslusively, and not the peoples, and brutally divide the world between the fanaticus with the Bush government and the rest of us against.

The "evil doers" walk amongst us.

While I agree that Rumsfeld needs to be fired - and probably jailed - I don't know why you stop there. Shouldn't they all be fired, starting at the very top? What good could be achieved by firing Rumsfeld when his replacement will be named by the Bush-Cheney team?

"We need new management at the Pentagon and have needed such for a very long time -- but the morale of the United States as a nation is being sacrificed because of the massive ego and constant missteps of Donald Rumsfeld."

Washington Beltway pattern again. Always protect the President by blaming his subordinates. "If only the Czar knew..." The Party is always pure and good because the symbol of the Party (President) remains Pure and Good. I watched a dozen cabinet-level Republicans get fired under Nixon while Nixon remained above reproach, simply duped by his inferiors. Same with Reagan.

SC manages to retain his Republican friends. Someone with objectivity and integrity blames Rumsfeld for nothing, and Bush for everything. The buck seems to stop where comity comes into jeopardy.

When I lived in the Middle East, I found three central themes for resentment.

1. American arrogance. The Ugly American is not a myth, and the Iraqis are not idiots, no matter what we think.

The Iraqis had a dictator in charge because the US helped put him in office and assisted him in staying there, even when Bush Sr. promised assistance in an overthrow. It wasn't through their lack of efforts to get rid of him or their ignorance of democracy.

2. Morals and ethics. Abu Ghraib, contractor trophy shooting, perceived unfair bias for Israel are all part of this. Abandoning Afghanistan after the Soviet occupation. I would imagine the Sunni's believe the story on how the US Ambassador gave Hussein permission to invade Kuwait after Kuwaiti side drilling and can't imagine why we turned on them.

US foreign pollicy flip-flops every four years and in a civilization that old, betraying a partnership 10 or 20 years old is unbelievable, no matter the reason.

The fact that nothing is happening to senior officers over Abu Ghraib, contractors of soldiers over treatment of women, to Halliburton and KBR for contract irregularities, or whoever thought up the plan to burn bodies in Afghanistan must be appalling.

3. Not sharing in wealth. In poor countries, those that have share with those who don't. I won't go into detail, because we've obviously invested billions in Iraq. But Afghanis and Pakistanis freezing through the winter must be thinking wonderful things about us.

Just wanted to throw into the discussion a small part of what Hersh has to say about the preznit's mindset on CNN..

BLITZER: In this new article you have in The New Yorker, you also write this about the president: 'The president is more determined than ever to stay the course,' the former defense official said. 'He doesn't feel any pain. Bush is a believer in the adage, "People may suffer and die, but the Church advances." ' He said that the president had become more detached, leaving more issues to Karl Rove and Vice President Cheney. 'They keep him in the gray world of religious idealism, where he wants to be anyway,' the former defense official said.

HERSH: Suffice to say this, that this president in private, at Camp David with his friends, the people that I'm sure call him George, is very serene about the war. He's upbeat. He thinks that he's going to be judged, maybe not in five years or ten years, maybe in 20 years. He's committed to the course. He believes in democracy.
HERSH: He believes that he's doing the right thing, and he's not going to stop until he gets -- either until he's out of office, or he falls apart, or he wins.

BLITZER: But this has become, your suggesting, a religious thing for him? HERSH: Some people think it is. Other people think he's absolutely committed, as I say, to the idea of democracy. He's been sold on this notion.

He's a utopian, you could say, in a world where maybe he doesn't have all the facts and all the information he needs and isn't able to change.

I'll tell you, the people that talk to me now are essentially frightened because they're not sure how you get to this guy.

We have generals that do not like -- anymore -- they're worried about speaking truth to power. You know that. I mean that's -- Murtha in fact, John Murtha, the congressman from Pennsylvania, which most people don't know, has tremendous contacts with the senior generals of the armies. He's a ranking old war horse in Defense Appropriations Subcommittee. The generals know him and like him. His message to the White House was much more worrisome than maybe to the average person in the public. They know that generals are privately telling him things that they're not saying to them.

And if you're a general and you have a disagreement with this war, you cannot get that message into the White House. And that gets people unnerved.

BLITZER: Here's what you write. You write, "Current and former military and intelligence officials have told me that the president remains convinced that it is his personal mission to bring democracy to Iraq, and that he is impervious to political pressure, even from fellow Republicans. They also say that he disparages any information that conflicts with his view of how the war is proceeding."

Those are incredibly strong words, that the president basically doesn't want to hear alternative analysis of what is going on.

HERSH: You know, Wolf, there is people I've been talking to -- I've been a critic of the war very early in the New Yorker, and there were people talking to me in the last few months that have talked to me for four years that are suddenly saying something much more alarming.

They're beginning to talk about some of the things the president said to him about his feelings about manifest destiny, about a higher calling that he was talking about three, four years ago.

I don't want to sound like I'm off the wall here. But the issue is, is this president going to be capable of responding to reality? Is he going to be able -- is he going to be capable if he going to get a bad assessment, is he going to accept it as a bad assessment or is he simply going to see it as something else that is just a little bit in the way as he marches on in his crusade that may not be judged for 10 or 20 years.

He talks about being judged in 20 years to his friends. And so it's a little alarming because that means that my and my colleagues in the press corps, we can't get to him maybe with our views. You and you can't get to him maybe with your interviews.

How do you get to a guy to convince him that perhaps he's not going the right way?

Jack Murtha certainly didn't do it. As I wrote, they were enraged at Murtha in the White House.

And so we have an election coming up -- Yes. I've had people talk to me about maybe Congress is going to have to cut off the budget for this war if it gets to that point. I don't think they're ready to do it now.

But I'm talking about sort of a crisis of management. That you have a management that's seen by some of the people closely involved as not being able to function in terms of getting information it doesn't want to receive.

Hersh's story in the New Yorker.

Here's the CNN transcript. Commentary by Juan Cole (and here).

pat lang has a post worth reading about the pentagon's plans for troop rotations. the way these people have toyed with lives is beyond criminal, and if there is to be true justice, they will be held accountable for crimes against humanity:

"On Meet the Press yesterday we learned that the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, General Peter Pace USMC says that the armed forces can cope adequately with its impending crisis of personnel and unit "fatigue" by re-training support personnel to perform the duties now done by the infantry.

This means that some of those young folks who were recruited on the basis of a better future through Army training and the experience of a measure of discipline in their lives are going to be re-trained to be an approximation of an infantryman. Mechanics, finance clerks, chaplain's assistants, truck drivers, artillerymen, etc. The list of possibilities is extensive.

Can this be done? Certainly. Will it produce a force equal in quality to the one we now have? Certainly not."

http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2005/11/retraining_supp.html

btree:

Thank you for finding that quote by Hersh.

vachon

Don't you America blamers realize that you are advocating the defeat of the country in which you and your children live?

If you really think that America is not the best country on earth (yes, morally) why don't you leave? JB said, "The U.S. is so goddamned convinced that it is "good" (has all the best ideas about democracy, freedom, etc.) " What ideas are better?

You all sound like a bunch of spoiled kids.

I feel sorry for you.

Love to all

Interesting link btree, and another component of the convergence of data unmasking the Bush government as a leadership run amock, if not actually insane.

The subtle hint here is that our socalled commander in chief is on a mission from some god, sanctioned by some hierachies to dictate and impose on the America and Iraq people, and the world ideologies, ambitions, and designs that are the exclusive uncontestable provenance of the ruling dictator and the totalitarian dictatorship. The hard question is what kind of god, and what kind of hierachies are driving our socalled leaders? Whatever legions or godz the Bush government warmongers and profiteers exalt, - they are certainly not aligned or aplomb with the teaching of Jeshua ben Joseph, and are obviously far from holy.

This brutish obdurate disdain for facts and refusal to recognize or abide by democratic principles by Bush and the Bush government high priests is the definition of fascism.

Bush, and the Bush government have no ears, hard cold hears, and have evidently forgotten their sworn oaths to protect, defend, and honor the Constitution, and promote the general welfare of the people.

Rabid pursuit of supremist neo-fascist delusions and tyrannical ambitions, and an equally belligerent and obdurate unwillingess to countenance alternate opinion, to hear badnews, or to recognize the glaringly obvious factbasedrealities, - are clearly beyond the pale of acceptable qualities for the supposed leader of the free world. America cannot tolerate a messianic madmen and neo-facsist cabals commandeering the government and incapable discerning or unwilling to recognize factbasedrealities.

Is this the kind of leadership 51% America voted for in 2002?

The Bush government has insidiously shapeshifted into a government not of "Utopians", but of the far more nefarious (and I use that term with specific intent) "Olympians". This is an order, or cult devoted to the darkest and worst angels of our consciousness, bent on dominion and brutal enforcement of a New World Order, imposed by the terrible swift sword of the worlds most lethal hypersuperior military, and under the governance and unholy guidance of a totalitarian dictatorship operating above, beyond, outside, and in total disdain of any law of man or god.

The MSM can only sprinkle the tiniest bits of salt on these terrible truths, because the people are simply not capable or willing - YET - to accept or comprehend the degree of horror, criminality, and depravity into which the Bush Crime Family Cabal has devolved the government of America.

"The truth will set you free". America, might want to start looking into it.

I saw the video on CrooksAndLiars.com. Totally sickening to watch this private milita firing on what seems to be everyday traffic. If I was an ordinary Iraqi citizen, I would be ready to pick up a gun and join the fight against the Americans and Brits after seeing this. Is it any wonder that they want us out?

Video at http://www.crooksandliars.com/2005/11/27.html#a6076

We all love America brother. It is the neo-fascist cabals of the Bush government corrupting, perverting, and re-engineering America that we reject and denounce.

It is our childrens future we are most concerned about, since they will inherit an America far different from the nation we were born into. They will be forced to hazard and endure the terrible costs of an America stangled by enormous debt and deficit, an America widely divided between rich and poor, of an America hated through-out the the world, - of an America whose abiding principles, and the rights, privileges, freedoms, and protections of the people are radically re-engineered, eroded, diminished, or erased.

The Bush government warmongers and profiteers do not represent America and in fact are dismantling, and perverting the America we all love, and would give our lives to defend. Worse the Bush government is erecting place our once more perfect union a savagely divided nation run by a totalitarian dictatorship accountable to no-one, above and beyond the law, and in direct conflict with and opposition to the principles that formally defined our unique experiment in democracy.

This is not America, and we are all sorry brother.

Are you kidding me? I saw the video on CrooksAndLiars.com, too, and to conclude that America is somehow responsible for this is sick.

You can also conclude that Paul McCartney is dead from listening to Revolution #9 backwards.

Just surrender, folks. The US is controlled by a Theocentric right-wing cabal and is headed straight for hell. Move to France or Sweden while you can before the Bushies put you all in concentration camps under the New and Improved Patriot Act.

they hate us because we are free has always been bush's rather simple foray into goebbelian propaganda. they dont hate us because we are free which if anyone checked lately we arent free at all anymore, they hate us because we meddle in their affairs for our corporate interests - a la maj gen smedley butler's assertion that war is a racket.

Bush suffers from (among other things) a really disabling case of narcissism. I mean that seriously and I mean disabling in the sense that he should no longer be allowed to do what he's doing, nor sit in the office he holds.

Believe me, if I were a Republican I'd be noticing and saying the same thing. And I'll bet you there are plenty of Republicans who have come to the conclusion that they have been serving a troubled leadership team. What Scowcroft said about Cheney -- "don't know him anymore" -- is haunting.

Before they haul him away, I hope someone gets W's precise definition of what he means by "democracy." It's a word which is being tossed around mighty carelessly. And when you look at what this White House team has done for democracy in America -- the voting machines, the secrecy, the accruing of extraordinary powers to the Executive, Patriot Acts One and Two, the manipulation of information -- you have to question whether we'd wish their "democracy" even on our most "evil" enemies...

Mimikatz:

"It is hard to see how anyone could have succeeded in destroying
American credibility and both the perception and reality of American military
might so thoroughly if they had set out to do it deliberately."

It is all a function of the diversity of one's intellectual dialogs.

The Unabomber is a great example.
He had only one dialog--with himself.
There was no outside checking with reality.
And so he spun into a black hole of his own creation.

Another example: Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold of Columbine fame.
A dialog of two--again no outside checking with reality.

Cheney, Rummy, Wolfie, and the whole neocon clan
happily shared intelectual truths with each other.
Within their daisy chain of self-reinforcing reality
they bacame as certain of the truth as a clan of Unabombers.

I believe this is the only explanation
that adequately explains how they could do
so much irreparable moral harm to their own country.

This line of thought also explains how they can still hold true to a reality
that is obviously fallacious, foul, and failing.

The identity of their clan's reality is at stake.
So cling they must...
Else... they cease to exist.

By the way...

You know your country is in trouble when it's top reporter-- Sy Hersh
is seen on TV psychoanalysing (with deep hints of trepidation) a sitting president's narrow-band mind.

Call that observation: Koreyel's hunch.

Regarding the comments of "I Love America" above:

You don't have to be a blind conservative not to see it, just an ignorant one to deny it.

I Love America,
I'd rather stay and fight to ensure that America stays the best country in the world than watch it flushed down the tubes.

There's a trend in politics that I think is rotting the US from the insides. Only the strong disinfectant of light and action by a majority of its citizens will be able to redirect this country on a course traditional and honorable.

I love reasonable and friendly dialogues on political topics, but all I've seen in this blog are wild, conspiratorial accusations and mean-spirited vitriol directed at all who disagree.

Blaming America or Bush for attacks on America is like blaming children for attacks by pedophiles. Evil is evil and must be eradicated so that innocent people can live in peace.

Gaffney appeared on BBC News 24 today and basically called for a coup against Chavez -- ''because he presents a socialist-communist threat to America''.

In Gaffney's little world, "islamo-fascism" is on the march in Venezuela. Yep, that's right: according to Gaffney, Chavez is an "islamo-fascist". And how, you may ask, does Gaffney manage to conflate his favourite hate-target in South America with the AEI's new word-creation?

Well, easy -- as 'easy' as it was for Gaffney and his ilk conflating Saddam and Al Qaeda: because Chavez now buys his military equipment from Spain -- not the US.

Move over, French-Fried Socialist Centralized Liberal Communist Progressive France.

If the BBC presenter had questioned him about it, he probably would have pulled off a Pat Robertson, calling outright for Chavez' assassination.

I just want to add this: do the Gaffneys, Perles and Kristols have any idea on how this stuff plays outside the American media bubble? To anyone not surrounded by a media landscape of non-stop Fox news, Limbaugh and Savage, Gaffney looks just about ready for the psychiatric ward.

For those who haven't seen the actual video footage yet, here's a direct link.

America and Bush and his administration are not the same thing.
I blame them, not America...although I will add that I do blame the people, Americans who continue to support this appointed pResident after the revelations of torture condoned by the military high command and the lies and fabrication by the White House to get their war on. They bare responsibility too, elected officials and the electors.
Call it what you want. I'm standing up for what I believe in and say no and a big FU to you for casting doubts on my polictical beliefs and love of my country and countrymen. You, Rove, Bush and the Congressional Republicans are the divisive ones, not me.

John B., et al,

Me trying to have a thoughtful and reasoned conversation with you about The War on Terror is like you trying to have a conversation with Pat Robertson about Jesus. The data cannot get through your hate Bush filter.

I'm sorry.

Love to all.

Steve said: "The situation is a genuiune mess -- where greater deployments are no longer politically acceptable, and about which Rumsfeld has been lying anyway. A gradual withdrawal -- which some are calling a "strategic redeployment" of Iraq-based U.S. troops -- will not help matters unless the mission of those forces left behind is also radically decreased."

Steve, this is rank political gamesmanship to argue that the administration has declined to send more troops and as a result now it is politically unacceptable to do so and it is all Rumsfeld's fault. This is equivalent to John Kerry's "I was for it before I was against it" political speak. You know and I know that there are no Democrats who would have voted to send more troops to Iraq - not 3 months ago, not 6 months ago, and not 12 months ago. The Democrats have been playing politics with the war in Iraq from day one. The Democrats voted for the war out of political expediency and they are agains the war now out of political expediency. Read the following comments regarding the Democratic Senators' votes on the Iraq war resolution:

"The political currents were extraordinarily strong for everybody involved," said Jim Jordan, then executive director of the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee. "I'm certainly not implying that Democrats had their finger to the wind and didn't make votes of conscience, but it was a piece of the puzzle, clearly."

Ted Kennedy has a different take:

"There was a stampede to vote on this," Kennedy said. "A lot of our people got caught up in it."

And yet others suggest the votes were a function of time and the upcoming elections as reported by Ron Brownstein, a reporter for your beloved LA Times:

"[S]ources said that other Democratic senators supported Bush's push, in part because the senators believed an early vote might help the party shift attention to domestic issues it wanted to spotlight before election day. Democrats also felt more pressure to act because they recognized that the GOP-controlled House would agree to Bush's request on the vote's timing."

Please quit spreading your righteous indignation at Donald Rumsfeld, Cheney, and Republicans in general. The Democrats have neither the conviction nor the answers to be entrusted with our Nation's national security. Democrats are acting out of bitterness for losing the 2000 and 2004 elections. They think they have found Bush's Achille's heel and they are prepared to play it for all it's worth. They just want to play politics and the public is just starting to pick up on this. A recent RT Strategies poll reports that over 70% of those polled feel the Democrats are playing politics with the Iraq War (55% of the Democrats polled felt that way).

I agree with what I assume to be your sentiment, that the Iraq War strategy deserves serious scrutiny and discussion, but the Democrats don't have an answer and are united in only one thing - bringing the Bush administration down. Spare me all this Democratic talk of redeployment and timetables, this has been the Bush plan all along.
Read John Henke's comments on the Democratic strategy to follow Bush's plan at:

http://www.qando.net/Details.aspx?Entry=3001

The passing of time has a way of bringing public opinion back into proper perspective and the Democrats will get their payback for the political games they are playing now.

Yeah, it's all our fault. Never mind that 9/11 occurred prior to the invasion of Iraq and Abu Ghraib. To the Left, forcing some guys to wear panties on their heads is morally equivalent to mass murder. Which proves, once again, that the Left is morally bankrupt and beneath contempt.

I love America, I must have missed your thoughtful and reasoned discourse on the WoT.
Maybe Haloscan ate it or you posted on another site. Please resend. You are correct regarding conversation with Pat R. about Jesus.

Packsoldier: Become better informed, maybe then you will realize that one awful event doesnot mean subsequent awful events are justified and the right thing to do. And I do believe that that there were just a few hundred dozen worse things that making individuals wear women's underwear were committed on the prisoners. But then you probably knew that. You are an enabler and an apologist.

When are people going to stop thinking about our country in terms of my team / your team? I believe the saying of those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones applies evenly. Democrats playing politics? Say it ain't so! The Republicans would never do such a thing! Give me a break. There are lying scumbags in both parties. And as one could imagine, the party in power tends to create more of them. A Republican pled guilty to TAKING BRIBES today, but that shouldn't reflect on the rest of the POLITICIANS running our country now should it? Must be a bad apple like those guys on the night shift in Iraq. WTF should Democrats do but play politics? They don't control any branches of government and are the only thing standing between us and Fascist Religious Nutjobs taking over our country. Yeah many are bunch of opportunistic weasels, but at least they have something in common with their buddy's across the aisle right? The Republicans are falling apart before our eyes. It will be interesting to see how many are in jail in 4 years. If some Dem's go down with them, good riddance. How anyone can sit around and feel proud and confident in a party run by Delay, Frist, Rove, Reed, and Norquist is a mystery to me. The Dems are pathetic for the most part too. Here's the deal though. Unless we want to continue on the track of the last 5 years, we gotta get rid of the criminal and crazy elements that control our government. We start with the R's in power and do our best to get this country back on track. If the D's get corrupt like these guys, later. This isn't football. This is life, our country, and our global community. The Dem's will get some payback huh? Fine. Payback's a bitch, but federal prison is what's waiting for at least one R and it looks like he's going to have company.

TheMan said: "When are people going to stop thinking about our country in terms of my team / your team?"

An then you proceed to make the argument that your guys are worse than our guys. My whole point was that before we throw the baby out with the bath water we better know what we are going to fill it with. I'd rather fix what we have than venture into the wilderness with people who haven't been able to articulate a clear view of where they want to take us (read Democrats). I am bewildered by the trash and burn strategy of the Democrats. It only makes sense in a political context, and if that's all they are offering, I say keep the devil I know.

John B.

Do try harder to develop your reading comprehension skills. The moron who writes this blog cited Abu Ghraib and alleged "death squads" as the reason that al-Qaeda and other Islamofascists hate us. 9/11 occurred before our invasion of Iraq. Do you see a problem with the reasoning here?

And yes, I realize that other things happened under US supervision at Abu Ghraib. None of them involved mass murder or anything like it.

John B, et al,

The WoT according to the common man:

Most Americans are well-informed, hard-working, ordinary people who do the extraordinary day after day because of one great motivation that seems to be hard for many on the Left to understand: Love. (I do not mean that people on the Left do not understand love as an emotion. I mean the action of selfless love as motivation for life seems to be a Spiritual principle.)

Most Americans love their families so much that they will do anything to protect them, including supporting someone like Bush, because they truly believe he is the best bet for keeping their families safe.

They do not get caught up in Beltway games like Texas Air National Guard, Swift Boats, Cindy Sheehan, FEMA, Miers, Alito, Scooter, torture resolutions, Duke or who lied.

They know that Defense and the Economy are the main issues that directly affect the safety and security of their families.

The Bread and Circuses do not distract the majority of Americans from doing their best to do the right thing by their fellow man. They help their neighbors without Washington dictating when, where or how.

That's what makes them seem liberal at times. They are a caring and compassionate people. They just don't define "compassion" by how we spend our tax dollars alone. They define"compassion" by how hurting people are really helped. On the ground. Where the rubber meets the road. Even helping the Iraqis. Most returning military speak of their resolve to help those people have the freedom we take for granted. (See also: www.theotheriraq.com )

That is why they cannot understand blaming America for terrorists hating us. They cannot understand "cut and run".

BTW, Bush's poll numbers are still better than either party's congressional numbers.

18 months ago I bought one of those "Support the Troops" car magnets and altered it to say

"Support the Troops: FIRE RUMSFELD!"

Unfortunately, people only chuckle at it.

schmuggin,

How about this? "Support The Troops: Believe in Our Mission!"

I have been deployed to Iraq and have seen what the President meant. Yes, the terrorists do hate our freedoms.

We have the freedom to allow women to attend school and make something of their lives rather than just be Suzie Homemaker. They think that's immoral, and they hate that.

We have the freedom to worship or not. We can go to any church or none. They think that's immoral, and they hate that.

We do not condone the stoning of homosexuals just for their orientation. The terrorists think that's immoral, and they hate that.

We can freely choose our leaders. The islamic fanatics think only scholars of Islam should be in leadership positions. They think electing on the will of man is immoral, and they hate that.

We can read what we want. Be it Sean Hannity or Michael Moore, we have a choice. They believe that all one should read is the word of God as proscribed in the Koran, or otherwise to glorify Him. We don't want to be limited so, and they hate that.

The islamic fanatics believe that because some men can't control their own sexual passions, the only way to protect women is to cover them from head to toe. We believe in protecting women by creating and enforcing a set of laws. Each man is responsible for controlling his own sexual passions. They believe that's immoral, and they hate that.

Yes, we did help Saddam at one time. Instead of constantly pointing that out and using it as a reason not to have helped, why not say, "It's about time you came to our way of thinking and feel freedom, not just national interest, should help guide foreign policy. What's the next tyrannical regime we bring down?"

Saddam massacred his own people, took from the many to give to the few, drained the Marshlands and created massive ecological devastation, had no democracy, blacked out free expression, and used chemical weapons on helpless people. Please explain to me why this isn't a great liberal crusade. Will you refuse to help in what could be a great liberal fight because conservatives started it and maybe not all of them with the best of intentions?

Great post, True Hawk!

Where is the Left's humanitarian concern for the Iraqi people?

Love to all.

If the video is proved to be correct, what then is you opinion? Why is it that there has to be a picture or a video for reasonable people to make legal inquiries into illegal, amoral behaviour? It seems to me that those of you who are dependent on a camera or television to prove unethical, often sociopathic behaviour by your own fellow "citizens" are liable to be living out a sordid existence indeed.

For, one is not guilty or innocent depending on whether something is captured on tape...

If the video is proved to be correct, then it is obviously Bush's fault, just like Saddam, bin Ladin, Zarqawi and Katrina are all Bush's fault.

Anyone notice as the day gets later all the conspiracy buffs shut down their computers at work and go home? Our more conservative types wait to get home from work to respond to the we are the world types.

"Do try harder to develop your reading comprehension skills. The moron who writes this blog cited Abu Ghraib and alleged "death squads" as the reason that al-Qaeda and other Islamofascists hate us. 9/11 occurred before our invasion of Iraq. Do you see a problem with the reasoning here?" --Packsoldier

Yes, I do. There is no reasoning in your statement. The sad things that have happened in Iraq--people killed for the crime of driving in a car, houses busted into in the middle of the night by violent troops with men bundled off to Abu Graib to be tortured, etc. These things can bugg Iraqis.

The fact is that Abu Musab al Zarqawi was a minor thug before the invasion. The US military had several plans to destroy al Zarqawi's camp, which was in the Kurdish part of Iraq, beforr the invasion, but the Bush Admin turned them down. (Who knows why.) The invasion is what gave him the opening to become a major enemy. No matter how many times the Preznit adds 9/11 + Iraq, it doesn't add up to iraq did it. None of the al Qaeda that took part in 9/11 were from Iraq. Most were from Saudi Arabia. By your thiking we should have invaded Saudi Arabia.

Posted by True Hawk

Posted by Neocondan

Posted by I love America

Posted by packsoldier

Sorry "guys", but you are either a God damned IDIOT, or you are just another right wing troll. In either case, you are spewing bullshit. And it is obvious, by the inferior quality of your particular bullshit, that any conversation or debate with you is meaningless. I can't speak for anyone else here, of course, but I think I will be ignoring you.

And by the way, your multiple screen name ploy is betrayed by the consistency of the above mentioned bullshit that is woven throughout each of your indiviual posts, no matter which monicker you peddle them under.

POA - I don't know about the other "guys", but in my opinion you must be the IDIOT. All you seem to spew is invective and dismissiveness and not a single counter argument to the points being made on this blog - typical of an idiotic mind. Perhaps you are trying to live-up to your pen-name, and yes we all get that you are pissed off, but why waste our time with your personal problems, go outside, face the wall, and begin banging your head against it.

Theright, Bush government disinformation warriors, apologencia, and fanaticus regurgitate the same tired gospel accoring to Fox, Rove/Rendon group conctocted fictions, myths, disinformation, and propaganda. You mangle the points and the facts, revise history, and distort other people's commentary, and slime opposition - and then pretend to be defending America by besmiching our fellow Americans patriotism.

Let me clarify a few obvious points Bush government fanaticus are evidently incapable of discerning because you are so busy glorifying and blindly paying homage to the empty suit posing as commander in chief. We do not care what terrorist or islamo-fascists, or insurgents, or any of the socalled "evid doers" think about America. We do not care about what those fiends and shaitan think, or how the react to American polls, or anything about them. We do not care about the enemies of America.

Obviously those kinds of depraved maniac's (much like the depraved maniacs in the Bush government) have no ears, and are rigid and concretized in their beliefs and opinions and therefore incapable of reasoned or intelligent discourse.

We do however care about what our former allies in Europe, Asia, Latin America, Canada, Australia, here in America, and even other socalled progressive muslim nations think about America, - and more exactly that fact that the every street through-out the entire world loathes the Bush government and by proxy America, and for good reason.

(Again for clarity to the fanaticus Bush worshipers - EXCLUDING THE TERRORISTS, who we care nothing about) it is the rest of the world's distrust, fear, and loathing of America that we question and want to repair.

We also applaud the Bush governments' meager progress made in Iraq reconstruction, and the removal of Saddam and the killing of insurgents, dead enders, and terrorists and evil doers - but you are obviously incapable of simple math, and either blind or unable to read. Iran is the winner in Iraq, and what is emerging as a government there is an Iranian backed and influenced Islamic federation beholden to Shariah, and absolutely nothing like a western style democracy sold to us by the Bush government

Further, America is spending $1.5bn a week in Iraq and more than $250bn so far, and the good people of Iraq have electricity, sewage, water, health, gasoline, and academic services below prewar levels. Where is the progress? Where is the money? Where is the accounting? Billions are missing. Billions of our tax dollars are missing. Thousands of innocent Iraqi's have been slaughtered, many more thousand maimed, and all the Bush government cares about is training and arming police and a military. Our own troops admit that both the Iraqi police and military are people with insurgents, incapable of performing the tasks the Bush government has set for them, and untrustworthy. You can quote your GI blogs, and I'll quote mine who question the socalled mission, but the point is our troops are valiantly doing what they are told, and it is leadership that is repsonible for the cataclysmic failures and the greatest foriegn policy disaster in American history, not our troops.

We honor, love, and of course support our troops, and for those reason, we want their socalled mission in Iraq changed, and most of them returned to their homes and families.

Here is some more calculus to ponder. Our $491bn defense, and $44bn intelligence industries are incapable of securing the road to Baghdad airport, or defeating an insurgency using IED's RPG's and AK-47s. Here again the math is wildy awry.

You robopathically suggest we support the socalled mission. Well what exactly is the mission? The warmongers and profiteers in the Bush government have never been honest about the costs, the timeframes, or the objectives in wayward misadventure and war of choice in Iraq. The Bush governments shapeshifting excuses, justifcation, and hollow objectives change with every poll and election.

Tragically, our military leadership, our decent politicians left and right, the emerging Iraqi government, most Americans, and the entire world (with the notable exception of Bush government fanaticus) realize the socalled mission in Iraq is a bloody costly cataclysmic FAILURE, and no longer worth the terrible cost in blood, treasure, and loss of America credibility. The Bush government ruthlessly betrayed America, and is no longer trusted.

Lastly, democrats are responsible for pre-war mistakes as well. But democrats are now showing the courage to admit those mistakes and demand a change of course, - quite unlike the neo-fascist warmongers and profiteers in the Bush government who can only parrot the vapid stay the course mantras in lockstep unison.

Lastly, all the socalled "conspiracy theories" before the war relating what many of us termed the Bush governments' ruthless deceptions, hype, exaggeration, manipulation, misrepresentation, and contamination of the intelligence product - have all proven ACCURATE and TRUE. All the Bush government pre-war justification have proven FALSE.

The Bush governments threatspeak lies and the shameless exploitation of the dead and the horror of 9/11, and the deceptive terrorizing of the American people and congress into supporting the plunder and profiteering, - I mean war and occupation of Iraq - all once dismissed as conspiracy theories, - are now factbasedrealities to most Americans and the rest of the world, - the so, - do not count your chickenhawks before they're hatched fanaticus truebelievers, - because the torturous, nefarious, criminal, deceptive machinations of the Bush government neo-fascist warmongers and profiteers are just now being seared by the light of day.

This is starting to sound like Huffington Post. The reason I come here is that people usually stick to the issues and avoid the invectives.

Come on gentlemen (and ladies if appropriate), lets grow up.

Jon from Wis,
Why are you so eager to believe our military are murdering, torturing thugs?

The Iraqis never thought Abu Graib was a particular problem because they knew who the real torturers were. Rape rooms, mass graves, people being fed into wood chippers, electrodes on genitals, the severing of hands, etc, all by Saddam. Where's your outrage for that? Where's your compassion for the Iraqi people?

As for the Iraq-Al-Queda connection:
The 9/11 Commission said that there was no collaboration on the 9/11 attacks. (No one ever claimed that there was.)

The Commission also said, “Iraqi officials offered Bin Ladin a safe haven in Iraq. Bin Ladin declined, apparently judging that his circumstances in Afghanistan remained more favorable than the Iraqi alternative. The reports describe friendly contacts and indicate some common themes in both sides' hatred of the United States." (p 66 of the Commission report)

And Pissed Off One,
I'm trying not to use ad hominem argumentation with you, but you make it difficult. Suffice to say that your hatred blinds you to reality. We are all Americans, like it or not, your positions increase the chances that we will be defeated by terrorist thugs who want to kill our children. Is that what you want?

Love to all.

Tony,

The road to the airport has been secure for months. The rest of your "facts" are flawed as well.

Sorry.

Love to all.

Tony said:

"We do not care what terrorist or islamo-fascists, or insurgents, or any of the socalled "evid doers" think about America. We do not care about what those fiends and shaitan think, or how the react to American polls, or anything about them. We do not care about the enemies of America.
(Again for clarity to the fanaticus Bush worshipers - EXCLUDING THE TERRORISTS, who we care nothing about) it is the rest of the world's distrust, fear, and loathing of America that we question and want to repair."

This is either the best use of irony I've read in a long time, or we should all be very afraid.
It is no surprise that the socialists governments of Europe and Latin America fear us and loath us, but they fear our capitalistic system not our foreign policy. They are threatened by the ever growing gap in economic growth and development. Their debt laden economies and dwindling populations can no longer sustain their parasitic social programs that are growing out of control. Rather, than re-structuring their economies and opening their markets, they have resorted to closing their economies to US competition and opening their borders to cheap labor from Africa and the Middle East. We have seen what these policies have reaped in the form of the French uprisings by muslim immigrants. They cannot compete with the US growth in productivity and capital resources. Their position is politically unteneable. It is the established socialist aristocracy of Europe that fears us and loath us, while the newer European nations (formerly part of the Soviet block) embrace our capitalist models and embrace our American culture. We have nothing to apologize for and should not fall into the "progressive" clap trap that would have us adopt the old European models as the way of the future.

Pissed off American,

How novel - you can't win on substance, so you attack the messenger. I notice you failed to address a single point I made.

...still waiting...

I suppose it must be impossible for others to share my opinion, so I must be all four people you name. Wow, the free time I must have!

Tony Foresta, at least you tried to make some points in the arena of ideas, so I will debate you there. First, as a soldier, you can support me and my brothers in arms by supporting the victory(does this make me a chickenhawk, even though I've been there, and been involved in four separate firefights?). And that is what we are achieving - victory. Saddam is gone(something we both seem to agree is a good thing) and there is a feldgling, if fragile, constitutional democracy emerging. Iran is not the winner, despite the reports in the news, since most Iraqi Shi'ites hate Iran. You should talk to the people of An Najaf or Kifl - they do not like Iran and have turned over those members of the Revolutionary Guards they've found lurking in their midst. The Shariah is not their guiding light, contrary to what you might think.

You ask why you see no progress. That's because it doesn't get reported...at all. We straighten out the gasoline distribution network, rebuild wells, introduce sanitation to decrepid areas...and none of it gets reported. I personally got to sit down with the mayor of Hadithah to discuss how to get all 6 of the turbines in the damn up and running again(a major source of hydroelctric energy), and nothing ever gets reported. The biggest frustration soldiers like myself have had since returning is the difference between what we see on the ground and what we see reported in the news.

As for the insurgency, we are beating them. It's long, and it's painful, but it is happening. The insurgents stopped hitting frontline infantry almost two years ago since they couldn't beat us on the ground. They stopped hitting our logistical convoys when they got up to snuff in convoy operations. They have to hit crowds of civilians now, because they lose every single time they hit trained troops.

Do they cause some casualties? You betcha. We lost an aircraft carrier at Midway, but none would have called it a defeat. If we are losing so badly, why are re-enlistment rates in the combat zone exceeding goals by 135%?

My buddy Jason just got back. Funny how he says the road to the airport is now one of the most secure in Iraq. I guess that's just hype.

No one has yet to address the core issues I brought up - why is the attempt to erect a democracy not a great liberal cause? Hell, we didn't share love for the Soviet Union during WWII, but we still used their help in liberating Europe. Why should you care about conservative intentions? Why do you not see an opportunity to build something positive? I thought the great hallmark of liberalism was to find hope in the human spirit and nourish it to flourish through the gift of freedom. Shouldn't liberalism's great legacy to try and ensure that liberal ideals are used in Iraq instead of merely being cynical, and, by default, allowing conservatives sole sculpting ability? Or are some so driven by hatred that they would rather see us fail than try to back the effort?

Neocondan and True Hawk,

I guess (according to Mr Pissoff) I should congratulate myself on your excellent posts.

Love to all.

True Hawk and I Love America,

But I guess I already congratulated myself, or you. I am confused.

BTW, True Hawk,

Thank you for your service to our country. I believe you have helped to protect my children.

Over the holiday, I spent some time in airports and everytime I saw someone in uniform I made it a point to extend my hand and say, "Thank you." Everyone I thanked knew why I was thanking them and they all said,"You're welcome." And every time, as I made my way back to my seat, I became choked up with gratitude and tears of pride began to well up in my eyes.

I understand progressive policy. I happen to disagree with most of it.

I will never understand the anger and defeatism associated with those who do not seem tyo appreciate what out freedom is all about and what it takes to keep our freedom secure.

Thanks again.

Love to all.

First True Hawk, please accept my sincere appreciation and admiration for the great service and sacrifices you have made for your fellow soldiers and America.

I refer to the Bush leadership as chickenhawks, not you. I realize that that your intimate knowledge of events in the field shine a greater and brighter light on the situation in Iraq, than any I can offer here in my cosy haunt in NYC.

That said, let me touch upon a few issues that hopefully will bring us all to some common ground. Regarding defeating the insurgency. Of course the unchallengeable US military will defeat this shadowy enemy in any open engagement. The firefights and military successes you mention are outstanding individual achievements, but do nothing to defeat the larger insurgent war. Your enemy does not desire to win battles. Your enemy intends to make Iraq ungovernable. Your enemy - and I mean "the" or our enemy in Iraq is operating from a postion of not letting you win, undermining American achievements, and goals, and preventing Iraq from stand up a government. They do not intend to win anything. They intend to not let you win, and to make your lives, and the lives of innocent Iraqi so miserable and intolerable that - the terrible costs and blood and treasure become so "untidy" that you, that is we (America) leave, or at least change our tactics. Tragically, they have succeeded in this endeavor, desite your valiant efforts, great sacrifices, and thorough thottling of the enemy in actual combat. You are fighting a military campaign while your enemy is fighting a political campaign. There is much more I would like to discuss along these lines, but for the sake of space please allow me to move onto the responbility for current situation in Iraq falls squarely on the chickenhawk shoulders of our socalled leaders here in the homeland. There was no plan for the peace. Your forces were not properly trained, supplied, armored, or prepared for a long term insurgent engagement, - an engagement many people like me warned was inevitable. The comparison is often made that Iraq is like Viet Nam. I disagree. Iraq is America's Palestine. We are an occupying force in a victimized and terrorized suffering civilian population, combatting an unseen shadowing insurgent enemy that blends or hides into the population. This kind of engagement cannot be won militarily, as Israel, our Viet Nam Vets, your current commanders, the Russians, and any other occupying force will attest.

Though I hear and read news to the contrary I will accept your assertion and retract my statement regarding the road to the Baghdad airport.

You say that Iraqi Shi'it hate Iran. This may be true at the street level. But just as no one consulted with or actually cared about the opinions, hopes, and desires of the Iraqi civilians before and during the war and occupation, - so they will be neglected and eschewed again as the new government is formed. Iranian backed and influenced Shi'ia hold key positions in the emerging Iraqi government. Chalabi and his ilk (I will follow up with more names) are firmly entrenched in the emerging Iraqi government, and very favorable to, and close with Iranian Shi'ia. The South if Iraq is experiencing much more forceful and widespread Shariah impositions than other area's. If you have news to the contrary, please let me know, but that is my understanding. Iran's interest are not purely religious, but political and economic. Iran has every intention of exploiting Shi'ia favors within the emerging Iraqi government, not on the street - to gain access to the Iraqi southern oil reserves, and the gulf, and increasing Iranian influence in the larger region. They are succeeding in this end by their medddling in Iraq, their indigenous oil wealth, and their nuclear development potential. Iran has bargaining power that the Bush goverrnments political failures in Iraq have great exacerbated and increased.

Secular Baghdad will be left in the lurch, as the Kurdish north, and Iranian backed Shi'ia south divide up the oil and distribution points, and claim great and wider independence. A civil war (already ongoing) is likely to intensify (just as predicted by many of us) until the three vying factions and their proxies reach a political solution.

The best option here is to remove the American face and footprint, as well as American fire power from the calculus, and work politically, and through intelligence and covert means to support a stable Iraq or Irag(s) There could be other more rosy ends if some miracle happens, but this is the scenario that appears to be unraveling now, and in the near future.

All this said, - our military presence and intervention in whatever emerges in Iraq will -BECAUSE OF THE OIL - continue on a relatively large level for many many decades. We are all in for a long hard slog in Iraq. The point is - tragically - the ends will be nothing like the visionary pipedreams sold to us by the Bush government, and the costs to America in blood, treasure and credibilty will be enormous.

Lastly, with all due respect sir, - you like all of us, were sold a deceptive manipulated, patently false pack of lies regarding the Bush governments intentions and designs in Iraq.

Your ask a question the cuts to the heart of the matter: "why is the attempt to erect a democracy not a great liberal cause?" It certainly is, but it depends on the attempt itself. Attempting to erect a democracy through diplomacy, humanitarian efforts, and with the cooperation of, and in concert with a TRULY broad coalition of nations, and with the support of indigenous population is indeed a great, I would say noble liberal cause. However attempting to impose and enforce MILITARILY any form of government, (especially the perversion of democracy and puppet government envisioned by the Bush government) on any nation is tyranny and imperialism, not liberation or democracy. Imposing democracy or any government on any people military is illegal, unjust, and imoral, and certainly not

The Bush government intended to hoist Chalabi originally, had no intention of staging elections before Sistani forced the matter, - imposed the CPA and Bremer as the Viceroy of Iraq and America's proxy colonizer who usurped total control of every political and social process, the entire reconstruction and contracting of reconstruction process and total control of Iraq's oil. The Bush government's pathetic failures as impotent military strategists and planners, and the rapid deterioration of events in the field and the tragic failure to imagine the strength of the insurgency forced a continued shapeshifting change of plans, timing, and objectives. The rest is tragically history, so here we are.

The answer to your last question is that it is impossible now, after all the deceptions, abuses, failures, imperialist hubris, divisiveness and sliming of our fellow Americans, and former allies, dereliction of duty and wanton profiteering (which we need to discuss) by the conninving warmongers and profiteers in the Bush government to build something positive in Iraq. There is too much blood in the water. The only way to exact a positve end, is for America to garner the courage to admit the many horrible failures, deception, and abuses and begin the long and arduous process of righting the Bush governments terrible wrongs in Iraq.

Tony,

You and I are going to have to disagree on this one in the fine details. I understand the need for diplomacy. Believe me, no one would rather avoid a fight than I. However, whether one can or not depends on the opponent one is facing. Even Martin Luther King Jr said, "When one is facing someone like the British, one uses the tactics of Ghandi, but when one faces the Nazis, one uses the tactics of Bonhoeffer."

(For those not in the know, Deitrich Bonhoeffer was a pacifist priest in Nazi Germany who knew non-violent resistance to the Nazis wouldn't work against an oppoenent with no conscience, so he started violent resistance.)

Would you also consider the democracies of Japan, Germany, Austria, and South Korea to have been imposed by imperialist will? After all, they were made so through military occupation.

You are right that the enemy is waging essentially a PR campaign, because that's the only way they can win. In reality, they are nothing more than a nuisance to the government. A dealy and large nuisance to be certain, but they cannot win unless we give up. It simply is not possible for them to achieve aims anywhere but the media. They are counting on people like yourself growing tired of the bloodshed and deciding to go home, so they can move in unopposed. We left like that after Vietnam and the blood flowed even more, but most despicably ignored it since it wasn't our blood, only that of the Vietnamese and Cambodians we left behind.

Finally, you did basically say that you don't support this due to intentions. "The answer to your last question is that it is impossible now, after all the deceptions, abuses, failures, imperialist hubris, divisiveness and sliming of our fellow Americans, and former allies, dereliction of duty and wanton profiteering," is what yopu wrote. I know we can disagree on the intentions piece of it, but I thought surely we could agree that democracy was still the goal to pursue, no matter who thought what. I favor the three point shot over posting up in basketball, but as long as my team wins, I'll forgive the play calling and do what I can to help.

Some people here do not seem to want peace. They want to be spared war, as if the absence of war was the same as peace. It isn't. True peace is not merely the absence of conflict, but rather the presence of justice.

You make some strong points True Hawk, but we are still on separate fields with regard to the core issue. Diplomacy must precede, not supercede conflict. Diplomacy all but impossible now. The time for diplomacy is before war, not during or after. We were all denied that opportunity by the brutish hubris of the Bush government warmongers and profiteers who were bent on colonizng Iraq and plundering Iraqi oil from day one.

The fiction and myth of liberation and democracy is a cheap advertizing slogan and after thought of the Bush government. Congress did not approve, and America did not support this war based on liberation or democratization. This war was FALSELY and DECEPTIVELY sold on WMD, and imminent threats, and mushroom clouds, and days of horror like none we have ever known

Most people and certainly I accept that the "Bonhoeffer" doctrine is applicable in certain cicumstances. When it comes to defeating America's enemies, - I am not that liberal, and you can google my name and review comments three years back for proof. When are we going to begin defeating our real enemies???

The WWII Germany and Japan comparisons are widly misrepresentative, since in that instance there was a global war millions of America troops, a draft, civilian participation and sacrifice, and the fate of the free world actually did hang in the balance in WWII.

And there, as in Korean and Viet Nam, America faced exceptionally well trained, equipped, formidable, highly motivated, relatively evenly matched, and lethal enemies, Viet Nam, which America lost, and Korea, which was virtual draw were both conflicts America entered into based on deceptions and political intriques, and in both cases we ended up paying a heavy price for warring for the wrong reasons.

Iraq was a third rate, demoralized, defeated, rusty, battered military with no air or sea power, and NO WMD, and who posed absolutely no threat to its' neighbors or America. Iraq was well contained. We ruthlessly enforced the no fly zones for ten years without a single casualty or loss of any assets.

Saddam may have had dreams and hopes of this or that weapon, - but Iraq was no threat before the war began. You succumb to the Bush governments FALSE DECEPTIVE and MANIPULATIVE terrorspeak before the war.

This FASLE claim was and is a grievous betrayal of the public trust by the Bush government warmongers and profiteers to justify the war, on a traumatized, frightened, and pissed American public.

Iraq posed no threat to anyone. All the fictions and myths to the contrary are simple regurgitations of the Bush government pre-war hype, misrepresentations, exaggerations, and contamination of the intelligence product, and patently FALSE lies used to terrorise America into supporting the war. No intelligence agency anywhere on earth presented any evidence asserting Iraq posed an imminent or immediate serious threat. Unlike the al Qauida intelligence IGNORED by the Bush government before 9/11 stating immenent threat of al Quaida attack, NO SUCH CLAIM or REPORT existed on Iraq. This false claim was the product of the neo-fascist WHIG/OSP/OSI cabals disinformation warfare campaign.

Had Iraq truly been a threat to anyone at anytime prior to the war, Israel would have acted swiftly to redress that threat long ago with or without America's help, or the worlds' approval.

Iraq was not involved in 9/11, had not WMD, no link to al Quaida and posed no threat, regardless of the Bush government lies to the contrary.

The Bush government continues to lie about this fact, and to betray America by pimping this false claim, - but Iraq posed no threat to America, or anyone else before the war.

Iran, Saudi Arabia, North Korea DO actually pose very serious threats to America, but the impotent chickenhawks in the Bush government FAIL to address those concerns.

The fact is, - as Martin Van Creveld, one of the worlds renowned war historians points out http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1653454,00.html, - Iraq is "...the most foolish war in over 2,000 years", and TRAGICALLY, - there are no good options left for America, and no easy, cheap, or bloodless way out now.

The Bush governments pathetic failures and impotent planning and shoddy preparation have turned what should have been quick work into and decades long bloody, costly catastrophe.

So, the answer to your first question is NO! Japan, Germany, Austria, and South Korea were not imposed by imperialist will. Iraq on the other is a catastrophic example of tyranny and imperialism, and the greatest foriegn policy disaster in America's history.

You also twist and mangle my points about the insurgency with false and misrepresentative comparisons with Viet Nam and Cambodia. Remember, the insurgency is America's Palestine, not Viet Nam. Insurgents will never have the ability to take over the country, or conduct genocide like in Cambodia, nor do they intend to pursue those ends. Again, they are fighting a political war, and will advance and work toward political ends. I do not diminish the cowardly and despicable methods used, but only point out the hard factbasedreality.

We do agree that democracy is the goal to pursue. However we divide hard on the possibility or anything like a western style democracy emerging anytime soon in Iraq. Iraq is a cataclysmic failure. Civil war is already ongoing, and likely to intensify. We can only make the due with what is sure to be a very difficult, costly, bloody, and long entanglement in Iraq.

You believe and trust the visionary prognostications, and hollow promises of the Bush government disinformation warriors, - where I believe every word spewed out the Bush government is deceptive, manipulative, false, or a patent LIE. You can look to the Bush governments' previous visionary prognostications and hollow promises and I beg you to explain to me how you can possibly hold these beliefs, or trust this government. I look at the same prognostications and promises, and the factbasedrealities today - and see nothing but lies, deceptions, abuses, failures, dereliction of duty, and wanton profiteering.

Here finally is the most important point for me. I personally, and most people supported the Bush government actions in Afghanistan.

The Saudi backed and financed jihadist shaitans who attacked America on 9/11 were based in Afghanistan, and the allied with the Taliban. America was right and just in destroying the decapitating the Taliban government, and destroying al Quaida redoubts. Iraq however was a betrayal of the public trust and a cataclysmic FAILURE strategically.

The Bush government was and remains derelict in it's duties in securing the Homeland by redirecting resouces, focus, and energy and global support away from our real enemies, - those jihadist muslims who are actually responsible for 9/11, and who actually do continue to pose a very real threat to America, and hurling America to a bloody, costly, noendinsight horrorshow and war of choice against the wrong muslims in Iraq.

Iran, rich in our petro dollars IS developing WMD, and IS jihadist. Saddam was secular Islamic, and adversarial with the jihadist spawn. Saddam buried jihadists in the desert by the thousands and crushed any jihadist uprizing during the 30 years of his reign of terror. There were no bombs exploding in Baghdad, and no insurgency in under Saddam.

The point is Iran IS linked with jihadist mass murder gangs, and WILL likely find a way to provide some jihadist freak with some chimera bug, or dirty bomb to use against the great satan.

The Bush government "good friends" in Saudi Arabia were and REMAIN the primary funding mechanism and nurturing bioreactor of jihadist islam. The Saudi state wahabi religion and wahabi imams teach 4-year-old muslims it is Allah's will to kill Jews, Americans, and infidels.

Jihadist are enjoying a recruiting bonanza, gleaning valuable experience and tested tactics against our great military in and because of Iraq. America has fewer allies and more seething enemies.

My greatest concern and why I am so determined to see the Bush government warmongers and profiteers removed, impeached hopefully, and America forced to change course in Iraq - is based on the fact that - we are wasting blood, treasure, and credibility in an unwinnable war against the wrong muslims. The other muslims, the jihadist freaks, the Saudi funded wahabi nurtured jihadist mass murder gangs are increasing in numbers, gaining experience, and time, and awash in our petro dollars - and those other muslims, the jihadist muslims are working feverishly on the WMD sequel to 9/11,- while the Bush government profiteers wantonly in Iraq and exploits you, and your fellow soldiers, and wasted billions of our dollars, for their exclusive political and economic gain.

Insider Says Troops Want Out of Iraq Now
by egrass
Sun Nov 27, 2005 at 04:13:50 PM PDT

http://stevegilliard.blogspot.com/2005/11/we-gotta-get-out-of-this-place.html

I'm back from Thanksgiving with my wife's family and I've got some first-hand feedback from the troops on Iraq, leaving Iraq, and Murtha. You see, my wife is a former military officer and her brother is an active-duty Major, decorated Army Ranger, and West Point graduate with more than 15 years in and about to ship out to Afghanistan. My wife is a good liberal on military issues, while my brother-in-law has always been a thoughtful and nice guy, but very conservative, especially on military issues. We've always gotten along well and been very respectful of each other, but totally disagreed on Republicans and military issues.

My brother-in-law thinks that Murtha is 100% right and that we should pull back in Iraq to forward operating bases in Kuwait, if not leave entirely. Even more interesting, my brother-in-law says that ALL of his officer friends in the 10th Mountain (a real front-line outfit) and around the military agree as well.

My brother-in-law is a gregarious, well-connected guy and literally has hundreds of well placed friends at the rank of Major a