Seems to me the new Sharon coalition is a good sign. As long as the Likud relied on the settlers to maintain a majority in the Knesset and BiBi kept stirring up mutinies I didn't see any way to change the status quo. With an Arab population boom and US pressure Sharon had to have some plan other than starving the Palestinians to death.

It'll be interesting to see how much pressure the US can bring to bear without marshaling the Christian base.

Steve, it would be interesting to hear if Palestinians think they are receiving food aid sufficient to support their population. There's been a lot of rumor on that. And down the line, are they now receiving the US financial aid that had seemed to be blocked.

OT: Thanks for the reply Mustafa. The last thread seemed a bit dead and I didn't know if you'd be back. Maybe we can continue the topic in the next open thread.

Steve,

Krauthammer said that there was equivalent acreage of land set aside as a swap for the West Bank land taken up inside the wall.

Is that land equivalent in terms of quality? Are responsible Israelis thinking how to ensure that the part of Jerusalem that is to be the Palestine capitol will be functionally connected with the rest of Palestine

so long as palestinians continue to be displaced (removed from their land, or prevented from accessing it)... it is hard for me to see that things are moving in a positive direction. i so hope i am wrong.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

123 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 704 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.

1,074 Israelis and 3,749 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000.

7,520 Israelis and 29,302 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000.

The U.S. gives $15,139,178 per day to the Israeli government and military and $232,290 per day to Palestinian NGO’s.

Israel has been targeted by at least 65 UN resolutions and the Palestinians have been targeted by none.

No Israelis are being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 8,279 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel.

0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and 4,170 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since September 29, 2000.

The Israeli unemployment rate is 10.4%, while the Palestinian unemployment is estimated at 37-67%.

60+ new Jewish-only settlements have been built on confiscated Palestinian land between March 2001 and July 11, 2003. There have been 0 cases of Palestinians confiscating Israeli land and building settlements.

Land is one critical issue, water is another.

My understanding, (uncorroborated) is that Israel "illegally" siphons water out of Palestinian territories, and this issue makes the land offers effectively null and void.

Since there is never any mention of water right issues, and I do not know the facts, I am curious if those in the know may have any news alongs these lines to validate or allay these concerns.

Please know I support Israel's right to existance, and view the Palestinian cause through the lens of one seeing Palestinain mass murder gangs (socalled terrorist organizations) repeatedly destroying any hope for peace, stability, or a political settlement.

That said, I hope there are issues dear to the Palestinian cause that transcend the crazed and bloodthirsty mass murder gangs who have hijacked the Palestinian people and undermined the political process.

What more can or should Israel do to achieve peace and stability in the region? Are there other issues, or disputes not on the table preventing political remedies?

I question if the Palestinian people actually want peace and stability in the region. There seems to be a great deal of enertia working in favor of a Palestinian state if attacks on Iraeli's end. Why is that so difficult for Palestinians to stop attacks on Iraeli's? What prevents Palestinians from seeking political remedies?

I realize there is a complex mix of cultural, historical, tribal, political, economic, and individual issues involve, - but fail to comprehend why the Palestinian people continue to support mass murder as a means to obtain political ends.

It would seem the Palestinian population is addicted to, or obsessed with bloodshed and for whatever reason determined to support the Palestinain or jihadist mass murder gangs continued attacks on Israeli's instead of seizing this ripe moment and positive enertia and working through a political process to obtain what most of the world, (including most Israeli's consider a just end.

Though there are conflicting forces, most Israeli's and most of the rest of the world would welcome an independent Palestinian state.

But Israel, and most other nations will never tolerate or help a Palestine governed and run by mass murder gangs.

The bargain is simple. Quit killing Israeli's and holding on the malignant, insane, and stupid delusion that Israel will be destroyed - and gain a independent Palestine.

Israel is a thriving, vibrant, and permanent state and an accepted member of, and positive contributor to the global community who will never be "blown of the face of the earth" by Palestinian or jihadist mass murder gangs. Palestinians need to quit supporting the retarded and nefarious idea.

The Palestinian people need to recognize and accept the factbasedreality that Israel has the right to exist, and realize there is nothing Palestinian mass murder gangs can do to change or alter that dynamic. In the end, Palestinians will loose. They either choose peaceful political processes, or suffer the fiery consequences for supporting mass murder gangs.

The best solution to the apartheid Israeli terrorist regime would be a South African style solution: one state, with equal rights for all, an end to the racist laws, and a Truth and Reconciliation Commission to return all property to its rightful owners and address human rights violations and war crimes.

"The bargain is simple. Quit killing Israeli's and yadayadayada....."

Posted by Tony Foresta

123 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 704 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.

1,074 Israelis and 3,749 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000.

7,520 Israelis and 29,302 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000.

Again, though this argument is redundant, but Israel is making postive political steps towards a solution, and an eventual Palestinian state. You can dish out your partisan statistics and I can dish out mine. I will doubt your numbers the same way you doubt mine.

The point is that Palestinians have at this moment, {largely due to the demise (Allah be praised) of that slithering reptile and mass murderer Arafat} a golden opportunity to arrive at the desired end, by pursuing political solutions, and stemming the support for mass murder gangs attacks on Israeli's.

Rest assured, - we agree on Israel's ruthless response to the attacks on Israeli's. Israel does not abide by the same rules of engagement as America.

Israel, unlike the Palestinain and jihadist mass murder gangs does NOT target civilians or children. Israel does however hunt down and kill any and every percieved threat, and if that threat happens to be in an area where socalled 'colateral damage" may occur, - there is no hesitation.

You can slime Israel with "yadayadayada" "Aparthied" nonesensical assertions if you so desire, but nothing will change. The comparison is wildly off base, but say what you will, - it does not alter the dynamic in anyway.

Israel will never quit ruthlessly hunting and killing threats to Israeli's. Palestinians need to accept this factbasedreality, and cease and disist supporting Palestinian or jihadist mass murder gangs who threaten Israelis, or suffer the fiery consequences and forget about ever achieving an independent Palestine.

That is the bargain Israel is offering now. The Palestinian people have an opportunity to obtain their just ends, if they will simply quit supporting mass murder gangs. If Israel were force to end the conflict militarily, they would do so, and quickly. The Palestinain people would be the ones "wiped off the face of the earth". Israel is not, and never has, and never will pursued this approach, unprovoked. That said, Israel will respond with and by whatever means necessary to secure Israeli's and the continued existance of Israel.

In the end, the Palestinians have nothing to loose from working toward a political solution. The pressure on Israel is enormous and reaching a solution to the Palestinian question is in everyone best interests.

Israel will welcome and in effect be forced to accept and an independent Palestinian state if - and only if - that state recognizes Israels right to exist, and quits supporting mass murder gangs slaughtering innocent Israeli's.

"Again, though this argument is redundant, but Israel is making postive political steps towards a solution, and an eventual Palestinian state. You can dish out your partisan statistics and I can dish out mine. I will doubt your numbers the same way you doubt mine."

Posted by Tony Foresta

You haven't given any numbers. So whats to doubt? If you can honestly dispute the numbers I cited, then do so, otherwise you are just casting crap. The sources for the numbers I cited are listed at the site I supplied the address to. Wheres the collaboration for YOUR assertions, which are vague, unsupported, misinformed, and dishonest.

By the way, need I post a complete list of the UN resolutions that Israel has IGNORED? A list, I might add, that primarily lists resolutions that admonish Israel to cease its human rights violations against the Palestinian people? Or will you attempt to discredit THAT list with the same kind of empty bullshit you are using to attempt to discredit the statistics I cited?

"Israel, unlike the Palestinain and jihadist mass murder gangs does NOT target civilians or children."

Posted by Tony Foresta

123 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 704 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/children.html

http://www.rememberthesechildren.org/

http://www.rememberthesechildren.org/remember2005.html

Heres a MUST read for anyone WHO ACTUALLY GIVES A SHIT, (that would exclude YOU, Tony), about the impact that the Pal/Israeli conflict has on the children, both Israeli and Palistinain...

http://www.savethechildren.org.uk/temp/scuk/cache/cmsattach/1383_CHR.pdf

TONY, DO ME A FAVOR. IF YOU ARE GOING TO DISPUTE MY ARGUMENTS, DO SO WITH SOMETHING OTHER THAN YOUR PREJUDICIAL EMPTY INFLAMMATORY RASCIST BULLSHIT. INFORM YOURSELF, WILL YA?

Palestinian Children and the Second Intifada
By Catherine Cook
Media Monitors Network
January 27, 2004

Catherine Cook is media coordinator at the Middle East Research and Information Project.

Overview
Palestinian children have been the subject of much debate during the second intifada. Israeli government officials have falsely portrayed them as unwitting pawns of Palestinian gunmen who use them as human shields, and as the offspring of calculating parents who value their children’s lives as an economic commodity that they are willing to sacrifice for money.

As the intifada has intensified, the image of Palestinian children in Israel has become progressively melded with the faceless image of the “Palestinian terrorist.” In the international media, children are depicted as either stone-throwing youth or as casualty statistics, lying on a stretcher or in a morgue. Palestinian children are either demonized or victimized. The reality of these children’s lives is far more complex.

For the past 36 years, each generation of Palestinian children has grown up under Israeli occupation. The occupation not only impacts their immediate physical integrity and mental health, but also has a profound impact on their future. At present, children live in an environment of extreme instability and are exposed to violence on a daily basis. Vital factors necessary for their healthy development, including stability, security, recreation, and sound nutrition are frequently lacking. These conditions prematurely force children into adult roles and rob them of their childhood.

International Law
Israel’s measures in the Occupied Territories result in gross violations of children’s rights as outlined in the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child (CRC). The CRC is the most widely ratified human rights treaty in history, with only two countries—the United States and Somalia—having failed to ratify it. As a state party to the CRC, Israel is legally bound to implement its provisions.

The overriding principle of children’s rights is found in article 3, which states: “In all actions concerning children...the best interests of the child shall be a primary consideration.” But documentation from human rights organizations and other institutions indicate that Israel has shown insufficient consideration for the impact of their policies on Palestinian children.

These children are routinely subjected to a variety of violations, including of the right to life (article 6), the right to education (article 28), the right to be free from torture and other cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment (article 37), and the right to health (article 24), among others.

Killings, Injuries, and Arrests
As of January 2004, the Palestinian child rights organization Defense for Children International/Palestine Section (DCI/PS) had documented the deaths of over 500 Palestinian children (under 18). These deaths were the result of Israeli occupation policies implemented in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip since September 2000. DCI/PS reports that an estimated 10,000 children were wounded during that period.

The majority of these children were killed and injured while going about normal daily activities, such as going to school, playing, shopping, or simply being in their homes. Sixty-four percent of children killed during the first six months of 2003 died as a result of Israeli air and ground attacks, or from indiscriminate fire from Israeli soldiers.

In addition to children killed and injured, approximately 2,200 have been arrested. As of January 2004, between 360 and 370 children were being held in detention centers and prisons in the Occupied Territories and Israel. Testimonies gathered from child prisoners, and confirmed by local and international human rights organizations, demonstrate that from the moment of arrest through their incarceration these children are subjected to a systematic pattern of physical and psychological abuse, often amounting to torture. Such abuse includes being beaten, tied in contorted positions for extended periods of time, deprived of food and sleep, and being threatened and humiliated. Family and attorney visits are regularly obstructed or denied.

Virtually every convicted Palestinian child is sentenced to prison, where they are held in overcrowded, unsanitary facilities and face abuse from prison staff and Israeli inmates. In most facilities, Palestinian children have no access to formal education and the prison administrations fail to provide them with adequate supplies and medical care.

Health and Education
Israel’s restrictions on Palestinian movement, such as curfews and closures, have resulted in skyrocketing unemployment and poverty rates. This has caused a drastic decline in children’s health as families are unable to adequately feed their children or access to food is restricted. A January 2003 report by CARE International noted that chronic malnutrition among children under five has reached emergency rates and over 40 percent of children in that age group are anemic.

The UN Special Rapporteur on the Right to Food, Jean Ziegler, confirmed these trends in an October 2003 report. His report noted that the Palestinian population of the West Bank and Gaza Strip is on the verge of a manmade “humanitarian catastrophe.” Over 50 percent of Palestinians are completely dependent on food aid and severe malnutrition rates among children in the Gaza Strip have reached those found in sub-Saharan Africa.

Perhaps the gravest impact of Israel’s occupation policies has been to children’s mental health. Since September 2000, Palestinian children have lived in an environment of continuous violence and uncertainty, which has led to a high rate of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) symptoms. An April 2003 survey by the Gaza Community Mental Health Program found that 33 percent of children surveyed require psychological intervention and 49 percent suffered from moderate level PTSD symptoms. Only 2.5 percent of the children surveyed had no symptoms of the disorder.

A March 2003 Save the Children Sweden and United Kingdom study noted that parents report that their children under five exhibit disturbing behavioural symptoms, including increased violence and aggression, lack of concentration, failure to eat properly and maintain good hygiene, bed-wetting and nightmares. According to a July 2003 joint study by Save the Children US and the Secretariat of the National Plan of Action for Palestinian Children, 90 percent of parents reported that their children exhibit similar, traumatic stress-related symptoms.

The educational process also has been severely disrupted. The poor economic situation has prompted some children to leave school in search of work. Those who remain enrolled face significant challenges. Maintaining a national educational standard has been extremely difficult given that each area of the West Bank and Gaza has been affected to a different extent by Israeli curfews, closures, and invasions.

On the way to school, children and teachers are routinely tear-gassed, harassed, or present when soldiers open fire—all of which affect the quality of instruction and a child’s ability to perform well once in the classroom. Additional factors such as increasingly stressful home environments and military raids on residential neighborhoods, as well as attacks on schools themselves, exacerbate the difficult situation.

Future Prospects
The conditions of children’s lives during this intifada are not new; they are simply an intensification of those experienced by previous generations of Palestinian children who have grown up under occupation. The violations to which Palestinian children are subjected are not an arbitrary departure from otherwise good practice. They are part and parcel of Israel’s occupation—a system of control that is backed by legal, political, and economic structures. This system is fundamentally aimed at regulating and restricting the lives of Palestinians and keeping over three million people under submission.

Despite the trying circumstances of their lives, Palestinian children express resilience. While only 15 percent of children surveyed in the Save US/Secretariat study believed that the political situation is likely to improve, 70 percent believe they have the ability to improve their personal situation. Ninety percent responded that personal and academic “self-improvement” was their main way of coping with the current situation and preparing for the future.

However, the cumulative effects of more than three years of sustained rights abuses will take many years to mitigate. The children Israel targets today with its violence, repression, and policies of collective punishment are the future of Palestinian society. With children constituting over half the Palestinian population of the Occupied Territories, the impact of Israel’s rights abuses during this intifada is cause for grave concern about the future.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/chil-cook.html

I sometimes wonder if the fighting will ever stop in the Middle East. They've been fighting for almost 5,000 years and in some ways their economies depend on constant crisis.

Like the political action groups MoveOn or Swift Boat Veterans, both economies depend on donations for a large percentage of their income. And like those groups, a new crisis is the best way to tug the heart and purse strings of donors. If there wasn't an Alito they'd invent one for the next fundraiser.

Look at how the Palestinians refuse to give up the right of return. The Israelis seem to start targeted assassinations every time a successful ceasefire is negotiated.

Certainly the everyday person on the street wishes for peace and a normal life, but leaders seeking power and dominance rarely have the best interests of their constituents in mind.

Imagine how peaceful things would be if we'd just given the Israelis half of New Mexico? Although I'd imagine they'd still find some way to battle.

Mustafa, you're probably familiar with Attaturk. Do you think the ideal of a benevolent dictator, say for instance an idealistic imam or clergy as in Sharia law, is more of a shared value for the muslim Middle East than the independence that the western ideal of an open democracy affords?

"Rest assured, - we agree on Israel's ruthless response to the attacks on Israeli's. Israel does not abide by the same rules of engagement as America."

Tony, again...

Don't flatter yourself, I "agree" with NOTHING you have said here on this issue. OUR treatment of the Fallujans pretty much parallels Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, does it not?

Tony, you have responded now, TWICE to my comments on this thread, and you haven't said a damned thing. Nothing but spew and venom directed against the Palestinians, and nothing but praise for the Israelis. You dispute figures that you offer NO rebuttal to. You link the ENTIRE Palestinian populace to "Palestinian or jihadist mass murder gangs". You completely avoid mention of the UN resolutions admonishing Israel for its treatment of the Palestinians.You state that Israel does not target children, despite volumes of evidence to the contrary. You ignore the illegal wall that has cut many Palestinians off from their jobs and educations. And you do all this from such a transparently uninformed and ignorant platform that by all rights you should be EMBARASSED to advance your spew.

You remind me of these lying bastards in the White House murmuring asinine inanities like "the insurgency is in its last throes" or "we do not torture" despite the very real spectre of REALITY that disputes such blatant falsehoods. Until you blathering apologists start reconizing and accepting the travesties of BOTH SIDES of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict then there will NEVER be any peace there, and the human tragedy will only worsen. There is a VERY CONVINCING argument that some of the suicide bombings are false flag operations designed to alienate world opinion against the Palestinians, and to derail efforts at peace. If you doubt this, and seek to discredit it with more of the blathering nothingness you seem to want to offer as rebuttal, than I will simply offer REAL AND DOCUMENTED examples of PROVEN Israeli false flag operations to buttress my argument, AS YOU KNOW I CAN.

Wise up, Tony. Your type of ignorance and one sided advocation is part of the PROBLEM, not part of the SOLUTION.

"Imagine how peaceful things would be if we'd just given the Israelis half of New Mexico?"

Posted by Dons Blog

Well, at least THAT PART of our southern border would be secure.

It is interesting to note that many Christians believe that the anti-christ will facilitate a peace in the middle east. I wonder who this could be? I myself have always believed that George Bush is the anti-christ; could I be far from wrong?

It is interesting to note that many Christians believe that the anti-christ will facilitate a peace in the middle east. I wonder who this could be? I myself have always believed that George Bush is the anti-christ; could I be far from wrong?

Posted by meowomon

The Anti-Christ will undoubtedly be convincing and clever while advancing his evil deceptions. Sorry, but that rules out Monkey Boy.

“Look at how the Palestinians refuse to give up the right of return. The Israelis seem to start targeted assassinations every time a successful ceasefire is negotiated…Mustafa, you're probably familiar with Ataturk. Do you think the ideal of a benevolent dictator, say for instance an idealistic imam or clergy as in Sharia law, is more of a shared value for the muslim Middle East than the independence that the western ideal of an open democracy affords?”

Don,

I’m taking some time off the blog but am glad that I bumped into the thread and noticed your question to me.

1. I don’t think the Palestinians will give up their right of return, and I’m concerned about both them and Israeli Jews. As you know, the Palestinians have been in Canaan since long before Abraham and his small tribe trekked in, being pushed out of Ur by northern tribes.

From William Dever and other anthropologists we know that the Palestinians and other Canaanites were living side by side for centuries with the people who became known as the Hebrews (Let’s not get hung up on the Exodus, Mosaic covenant and other historically untenable myths), and every time the Jews came in from other places (Babylon, Spain, central Europe, etc.) they were welcomed by the people of Palestine. This time, though, Ashkenazi Jews -- most of them really are Europeans -- roared in as European conquerors and, instead of trying to live as peaceable neighbors, created an ethnically cleansed settler state.

The Anglo-Saxons could pull off similar ethnic cleansing projects in the United States, Canada and Australia and New Zealand in the early colonial era among dispersed and far-too-backward populations. The question is whether that recipe will work in the 21st century in the heart of a resurgent civilization.

I’m concerned because of Israel’s decision to live by the sword, whose limitation has been exposed by its withdrawal from southern Lebanon and now Gaza and northern West Bank.

2. Mustafa Kemal Ataturk was indeed an exceedingly capable army general who liberated Turkey by defeating the victors of World War I (which sent Winston Churchill into depression and lamentation).

He was the Turks’ George Washington. The problem was that he wasn’t content to remain a George Washington and wanted also to become Islam’s Martin Luther, Marquis de Condorcet and V.I. Lenin in one piece. He had little formal education, either Islamic or Western, but became excited after reading Thomas Carlyle in the army barracks and decided to spark the French Enlightenment in Turkey through a Bolshevik-style revolution.

Ataturk is adored in the West because of his radical Westernization and anti-Islamic campaign, but in reality he was as naïve as social reformer as Paul Wolfowitz. Like the neocons he didn’t know that you can’t replace a traditional social or political order overnight with an alien one, that a society has to evolve from its roots.

The result has been that with the introduction of full-fledged democracy, Turkey became the world’s first and only Muslim country yet in which an Islamist-oriented political party came to power through free and fair election. But Islamism is voodoo politics, and it doesn’t have solutios to people’s economic or social problems.

And so the real modernization of Turkish society, which had begun in the late 19th century and was in fact interrupted by the laicist dictatorships of Ataturk and his followers, has finally resumed, albeit through the Islam-oriented party. I recounted the Turkish experience to make the point that Muslim societies have to modernize from within, just as Western societies have.

Meanwhile, I am wondering – I hope and pray that I’m wrong – whether Islam finally is going to have its own (Shiite-Sunni) “Thirty Years’ War” in the Middle East before ushering in its “enlightenment.”

(I will be busy and may not visit this blog for a while. If you wish to contact me, please feel free to e-mail me at: mmalik41@comcast.net.)

Calm down Pissed off American, or you'll make yourself sick with all that slime spewing out of your mouth.

If you can quit hurling ridiculous unsubstantiated, and meaningless - though often humorous insults for a moment, you will understand that your passion in defense of the death and mayhem of Palestinian children mirrors the passion Israeli's and many other people hold for their children slaughtered, maimed, or traumatized by mass murder gangs.

Most people do not differentiate between the religious, racial, political, cultural, or economic catagories demarcating adults when the suffering children is inolved - all civilized human beings (and this of course preclude the fascist warmongers and profiteers in, or beholden to the Bush government) view the suffering of any child intolorable and abhorant.

(I will remind you here for the sake of factbasedrealities, - that Israel does not target children - but jihadist mass murder gangs do purposely and intentionally target children, including there own muslim daughters and sons).

I share your compassion for the Palestinian chidren but I also have compassion of the Israeli children, and the Iraqi, Sudanese, Croat, Bosnian, North Korean, and New Orleans children for that matter.

I won't entertain your fictional conflation and patently FALSE comparison of the imperialist predatoins of the fascist wamongers and profiteers in Bush government in Iraq and Israel's necessary response to Palestinian attacks. The second intifada was started by Sharon making a visit to the Dome of the Rock. This may have been unseemly, but it was no act of military aggression, and the pathological Palestinian response was immediately violent and savage and has led to years of war and hardship and your and my suspect numbers of casualties on both sides.

Israel occupies lands won in battle. The Palestinian cliams of ancient rights have o validity on the modern context, or we do you suggest giving New York back to native Americans. Neither pipedream is ever going to happen. Israel will gladly step back to pre-67 borders once the Palestinains stop supporting the attacks, and the attacks subsequently subside. Israel did not initiate the targeted assissinations campaigm. This ruthless tactic was necessary to stem the bloodshed and increase the security of Israel, and like it or not they are quite successful. Just ask the Hamas' leadership de jour. These projects have been ongoing, and will continue to be ongoing so long as mass murderers plot to kill Israelis'. For every one of the bombs or attacks that do occur in Israel, the IDF, Moussad, or other covrt Israeli forces stop another twenty, - that you and the rest of the world never read about.

Israel does not bulldoze random houses. Each one of those houses or buildings is either a base of terrorist operations, or the home of a mass murderer or the home of a family member of a mass murderer. I am not debating the ruthlessness of these operations, but only pointing out the FACTBASEREALITY, that like the assassinations - there is nothing random about it - they are specifically and purposely targeted. You can appreciate how successful these operations are if you look into the details of the ongoing negotiations wherein Hamas, Al Aqsa, Hezbollah, PLFP, Islamic Jihad et al agents work to secure a cessation of these activities before any other subject is discussed.

My point which you fly over in your heated hatred of Israel is that - Israel is working and will continue to work toward a peaceful settlement and recognition of an independent Palestine. {The process will be difficult. There are indeed thousands of years of bloodshed rooting back to Hagar tugging at the hearts and minds of all sides and many complex issues to resolve, (Jerusalem particularly) - but it is in everyones best interests, - including Israel's to arrive at a workable solution and a peaceful settlement.}

That workable solution and a peaceful settlement will never happen while, or if Palestinians support mass murder gangs. Israel, like it not - right or wrong - justified or not - WILL continue ruthlessly hunting and killing every single mass murderer who threatens Israeli's.

The best hope for the Palestinian people and maybe this reaches into larger Islam in general is to divorce itself from, recant, reject, renounce, and condemn mass murder as a political instrument.

In the end, Palestinians and truthfully all muslims must make a simple choice. Join civilized humanity and the global community and progress - or continue supporting jihadist or anti-Israeli mass murder gangs and suffer the fiery consequences.

Palestinians have a great opportunity right now to make important strides toward independence and a Palestinian homeland. Unfortunately, tacit support of mass murder gangs continued attacks on Israeli's threaten to waste this golden moment, and destroy the hope of an independent Palestine and a postive future of for Palestinian children.

Posted by Tony Foresta

Bullshit. Once again, all you have offered is praise for the Israelis, and scorn for the Palestinians. Only a fool, an ass, or a liar thinks that it is that one sided.

And once again, you have offered NOTHING in rebuttal to the statistics you choose to IGNORE. You have offered NO explanation for the Israelis refusal to abide by the UN resolutions.

Then, you accuse me of "hating Israel". Well, if there is any "hatred" expressed here on this thread, it is the hatred directed against the Palestinian people by your skewed and one sided finger pointing.

You do not have the right to speak for me, nor can you imagine or pretend to understand what I believe or feel Pissed Off American. You speak for yourself, and I'll speak for myself.

Where in any of my commentary do you see any mention of me hating Palestinians. What I question is why Palestinians continue to support mass murder gangs who are destroying a a golden opportunity to make positive steps toward an independent Palestine. I think the skewed fingerpointing is eminating from your camp, who imagines that Israeli's should simply sit idle and play nice in the face of terrorist campaigns against Israeli women and children. My point is that like it or not, Israel is not going to play nice.

Israel will ruthlessly hunt and kill every threat, and if Palestinians truly seek a peaceful stable and independent Palestine, - they must reject, renouce, and quit supporting mass murder gangs threatening Israeli's.

The UN sanctions are also irrelevent, since obviously the UN has no authority or power to effect any political process anywhere on the planet. Israeli' abuses, - and I am certain there are many - are no more grievous than Palestinian, or Syrian, or Saudi, or American abuses. The reality is that Israel is not going to recognize or allow a Palestinian state run and controlled by mass murder gangs. It's never going to happen. Palestinians must seek alternative solutions that do not involve slaughtering Israeli's, the desire to wipe Israel of the face of the map, or supporting mass murder gangs.

You do not have the right to speak for me, nor can you imagine or pretend to understand what I believe or feel Pissed Off American. You speak for yourself, and I'll speak for myself.

Where in any of my commentary do you see any mention of me hating Palestinians.

Posted by Tony Foresta

I guess hypocricy is one of your strong suits,eh? You accused me of "hating Israel". Care to show me where I claim to "hate Israel"? Seems YOU are the one putting words in MY mouth, if we run with YOUR criteria.

Anyone reading your posts can detect the seething disdain that you hold for the Palestinians. I don't NEED to speak for you, your bigotry comes through loud and clear without my help.

I'll let the commentary stand on the merits and others can draw their own conclusion. Do you happen to know anything about water issues in the Gaza, which was my original, still unanswered question?

Palestinians Face Severe Water Shortages
Thursday, 19 June 2003, 10:44 am
Press Release: Palestine Media Center - PMC

Palestinians Face Severe Shortage of Water Supplies
B’Tselem: Water Disruption Between Israelis, Palestinians ‘Unfair’
Thousands of Palestinians are facing severe shortage of water supplies because of Israel’s control of most of the water resources in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip since their occupation of the Palestinian territory in the year 1967.

Under international law, Israel is committed to supplying drinking water to the Palestinians.

However, experts say that the supply shared between Israelis and Palestinians is a source of great controversy.

“It's highly unfair,” said Yehezkel Lein, a water expert for Israeli human rights group B’tselem, who helps solve water problems in Palestinian areas.

“We are talking about mainly the mountain aquifer and the Jordan River system. Regarding the first one Israel exploits approximately 80% of the renewal water resources, and the Palestinians the remaining 20%,” he said.

“Regarding the Jordan River system, the Palestinians do not have any access,” he added.

Lein also explained the clear linkage between the gap in water availability and the occupation.

“Israel has taken advantage of its control of the West Bank in order to appropriate more water sources and to prevent Palestinians from developing new water sources that are under the land,” he pointed out.

Another factor that is making the Palestinian water problem even worse is that many of the Palestinian residential areas are not even connected by any kind of water supplies infrastructure.

In fact, there are about 200 of such residential areas, according to statistics, which are the home of more than 200,000 Palestinians.

One such place is Beit Furik, a village in the West Bank near the northern city of Nablus.

“The real problem is at the beginning of their hot summer - they will have used up their water and they will begin to suffer,” explained Beit Furik’s Mayor, Atef Hanani.

Especially during the summer time, residents become dependent completely on water tanks, which usually do not reach their destination because of the hundreds of Israeli occupation army’s roadblocks.

Who's to blame for the severe water shortages?
by Muna Hamzeh-Muhaisen
14 August 1998

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Record high temperatures, the highest in over 35 years, have turned this into a hellish summer in the Palestinian areas, with temperatures reaching into the 40s [104 - 122 Fahrenheit] in some areas and humidity making things even worse. Floor and ceiling fans are useless, doing little to alleviate the stagnating heat. Even so, sales of electric fans have skyrocketed in the second week of August, because they are relatively inexpensive (US$27-$54) compared to the high cost of installing central air-conditioning, which runs anywhere between US$1,644 and $1,918.

Keeping cool seems as elusive to Palestinians as real peace. While most Israelis are escaping the heat by spending a day at the beach or in the swimming pool, most Palestinians can do little except swim in their own sweat. Israel's blatant refusal to supply the Palestinians with sufficient amounts of water to meet daily demands has left tens of thousands of Palestinian homes, particularly in Hebron, Bethlehem and Jenin, without running water for periods extending anywhere from two weeks to three months.

In the Hebron area, the population of 300,000 has a daily summer demand of 25,000 cubic meters of water but only receives 5,548 cubic meters. With a population of 180,000, Bethlehem is supposed to receive 370 cubic meters per hour but only receives 60 cubic meters. While simple everyday tasks like taking a shower, watering plants or sticking a load of laundry in the wash are a constant headache for thousands of Palestinians, the Israeli public and settlers are splurging on water without giving the matter any thought.

A paper presented by Jad Issac, Director of the Applied Research Institute in Bethlehem, at an environmental crisis conference in Switzerland in October 1994 , provides some startling figures: “While Israel consumes 1,700 million cubic meters (mcm) per year, Palestine (excluding settlers) consumes only 219 mcm. Each Israeli (excluding settlers) annually consumes an average 370 cubic meters (cm); each Palestinian, on the other hand, uses only 107 cm.”

The settlers are an altogether different story. In addition to the fact that they receive a continuous supply of water, each Jewish settler annually uses between 650 and 1,714 cubic meters. In a recent report on the water crisis in the Bethlehem area, Middle East Broadcasting Corporation (MBC), a London-based Arab satellite TV, showed settlers splashing around in an indoor swimming pool inside a West Bank settlement, while Palestinian women and children in a nearby village were washing their piled dishes from small 10-liter containers of water that the head of the household had managed to bring home.

Israel's control of most of the water resources means that the Palestinians are likely to continue to suffer. The chief surface water resource in the area is the Jordan River basin. The headwaters of the Jordan River, which feed Lake Tiberias, are located in northern Israel, the Israeli-occupied Golan Heights and Southern Lebanon, including Israel's self-proclaimed security zone. Meanwhile, Syrian and Jordanian waters, West Bank and Israeli springs all feed the Jordan River below Lake Tiberias. Surface waters contribute 30 percent of the total supply in Israel and the Palestinian areas and are under total Israeli control.

Israel also controls the rest of the water which comes from underground water resources. The major West Bank groundwater system is the West Bank Aquifer system, which annually discharges 600 - 660 million cubic meters but of which the Palestinians receive a mere 115 - 123 million cubic meters.

While the September 1993 Declaration of Principles between Israel and the PLO recognizes Palestinian water rights, it is vague on whether the Palestinians or Israelis will control water resources during the interim period. Annex III of the Declaration states that there will be “cooperation in the field of water, including a Water Development Program prepared by experts from both sides, which will also specify the mode of cooperation in the management of water resources in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, and will include proposals for studies and plans of water rights of each party as well as the equitable utilization of joint water resources for implementation in and beyond the interim period.”

The May 1994 Cairo Agreement on Palestinian autonomy in Gaza and Jericho makes the issue of water control even less clear. At first glance, the agreement looks promising since it gives the Palestinians complete control over water resources in Gaza and Jericho, with the exception of Israeli military areas and settlements which will be served by Israel's Mekorot Water Company. Yet the agreement also states that “the Palestinian Authority shall pay Mekorot for the cost of water supplied from Israel and for real expenses incurred in supplying water to the Palestinian Authority.”

The Multilateral Working Group on Water has yet to make any serious progress on the issue. Israel's refusal to address the issue of water allocation and water rights, coupled with the absence of two vital parties to the issue of regional water dispute, Syria and Lebanon, has left the Working Group virtually impotent. Aside from focusing on data, enhancing water supply and water management, the Working Group has not reached any vital decisions worth noting.

When it comes to finding a drink of water to quench their thirst, many Palestinians don't give a hoot about the politics of the matter. Everyone knows that Israel follows a policy of unfair water distribution and they also know that the settlements are drowning in water at Palestinians' expense. But, many Palestinians know too that even the small amount that the Palestinians are getting from Israel is not being fairly distributed.

The 60 cubic meters/hour supplied to Bethlehem is far from sufficient. Since this is the case, area residents wonder why is it that the water supply in certain neighborhoods in Bethlehem is never cut off. An old water pipe which for years now has been going past the house of deceased former Bethlehem Mayor Elias Freij ensures that Freij's house and the surrounding neighborhood is never out of water.

“The fact that the house is located on the main Jerusalem-Hebron Road means that whenever water is pumped to Dheisheh or any of the villages in the south, that neighborhood gets water as well,” says an angry Mohammed Laham, president of the Public Service Committee in Dheisheh Refugee Camp.

Laham believes that internal disputes between the previous and new management of the Water and Sewage Authority is partly to blame for the severe water shortages seen in the district this summer. Following accusations of corruption and mismanagement, the previous director was replaced nearly two years ago but many of those who worked with him still have maintained their jobs.

“Sabotage is clearly taking place,” says Laham. “The new management is constantly replacing water switches which are intentionally being broken by individuals believed to be loyal to the old management, and I believe that Israel is taking advantage of this internal dispute by reducing the amount of water it is pumping into the district.”

The last time this summer that Dheisheh Refugee Camp was supplied with water was between July 22-27. Two weeks and many unbearably hot days later, water finally arrived on August 10 , to the relief of the 10,000 residents of the camp. After reaching a few houses at the edge of the camp, the water was cut off again. This on and off situation lasted nearly all day and then the water was cut off again.

“When something like this happens, you can be certain that sabotage has something to do with it,” says Laham. “Someone simply switched the water to a different location and it will take the Water Authority one or two days to find the location where this was done. Meanwhile, everyone in the camp is screaming to high heaven because they are completely out of water.”

Due to this water crisis, many Palestinian families are finding themselves forced to purchase water from mobile water tanks, a booming business in the Palestinian areas this summer. Palestinians whose homes are directly connected to water pipes pumping water to Israeli settlements are selling water to fellow Palestinians at exorbitantly high prices. One Bethlehem area resident is selling six cubic meters of water for US$41-$54 when the price of one cubic meter doesn't actually exceed US$2.74.

While the Bethlehem Municipality and the Water and Sewage Authority in Bethlehem are aware of the situation, they haven't taken any action to bring these money-hungry individuals to justice. In fact, all they have done is to tell the public, through a local newspaper report, to bring in their complaints about this overcharge.

The demand for water is so high that many families not only pay the cost but have to wait for nearly a week before their turn comes up because the waiting list is so long. Others who cannot afford to purchase water send their children door-to-door to fill empty coke bottles with drinking water.

“Our laundry has piled up, the house is filthy and the children scream for a shower every day,” says Intisar Hasan, a resident of the town of al-Doha, south of Bethlehem. “It is at times like this that I hate the Israelis for saying that Palestine was a desert and they made it green. My beautiful vegetable garden is all shriveled up when the sprinklers in Israel are never turned off. And what about my children? Don't they deserve a to splash around in a pool in this heat? Will they grow up without knowing what a pool looks like except on TV?”

Israeli minister bans Palestinian water drilling
November 2002
U.S. Water News Online

JERUSALEM -- A far-right Israeli Cabinet minister has ordered a stop to all water drilling by Palestinians in the West Bank, accusing them of drawing illegally from hundreds of wells and depleting supplies in the parched region.

The Palestinian water commissioner denounced the decision by Israeli Infrastructure Minister Effie Eitam, saying it was part of what he called the Israeli government's ``war'' against the Palestinians. ``They want us to be thirsty,'' said the commissioner, Fadal Kawash.

The Israeli agriculture minister, Shalom Simchon, also criticized Eitam, saying the drilling ban would cause unnecessary friction with the Palestinians.

Eitam, a patron of the Jewish settlement movement in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, said he issued the ban because the Palestinians are violating water-sharing agreements and ``are carrying out hundreds of illegal water drillings, seriously hurting the water resources.''

Eitam, who heads the National Religious Party, said Israel would continue to fulfill its obligation to supply the Palestinians with water to avoid a water shortage in Palestinian areas.

Kawash, the Palestinian commissioner, accused Israel of not fulfilling interim water agreements reached in 1995. Under the arrangement, Israel was to make it possible for the Palestinians to obtain enough water to overcome annual shortages. Kawash said that of 200 wells the Palestinians proposed, Israel only approved 14, leaving more than 300,000 Palestinians in 240 villages without running water.

The shortage of water has led some Palestinians, mostly around the West Bank city of Jenin, to drill wells illegally, Kawash said, adding that the water is mostly used for drinking and for small vegetable gardens.

``We couldn't stop them because we have no alternative way of providing them with water,'' Kawash said.

Israel uses 85 percent of Palestinian water supplies in the West Bank, Kawash said.

In the past two years of fighting, when all other forms of cooperation between the sides fell apart, joint ventures in water and agriculture continued, said Simchon, the Israeli agriculture minister.

But Kawash said that a joint water committee has not met since hardline Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon came to power in 2001.

Kawash said that if Israel restricted Palestinian water supplies, ``we are going to find ourselves in a big crisis in the coming years.''

``Don't be surprised if the next intefadeh (uprising) will be the water intefadeh, led by thirsty people who want water,'' Kawash said.

Water Crisis in Gaza: How Occupation Affects Palestinians Access to Water

by Sonia Nettnin

November 3, 2005
GlobalResearch.ca

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Why a Water Crisis Exists in Gaza

Gaza has a water crisis. Most people in the international community do not know the details as to why it exists and the root causes of the resource deficiency.

For the more than 1.4 million Palestinians who live in Gaza water shortages and water deterioration affects their health. Moreover, the water crisis creates agricultural, economic, social, and political instabilities that have regional ramifications. Most of the existing problems are a direct and indirect result of Israeli policy.

If the resource inequalities are not rectified soon, the Middle East will be facing an irreversible human and environmental disaster.

Water Resources, Consumption and Distribution – Facts and Figures

Gaza has a sub-Aquifer, which is a part of the Coastal Aquifer (that lies along “…the Mediterranean coastline of Israel and the Gaza Strip.)”1 One estimate shows the people of Gaza over abstract (over-pump) between 120 – 140 million cubic meters (MCM) of water from the coastal aquifer per year, but the sustainable yield of the Gaza sub-aquifer is between 50 – 60 MCM/yr.2 One way to interpret sustainable yield is that it is the amount of water that can be extracted from the aquifer annually, while still maintaining ground water levels and chemical composition (quality). Scientists such as hydrographers, hydrogeologists, hydrologists, and ecologists perform volumetric and qualitative measurements of water resources to not only make scientific determinations but future projections.

Another estimate states that the water exploitation (over-pumping) is around 155 MCM/yr, but the natural (such as rainwater) and anthropogenic (agricultural return flow and waste water) replenishments total 87 MCM/yr.3 All of these scientific figures reveal that Gaza has a current water deficit of approximately 68 – 90 MCM/yr.

In addition, population density determines how much water is needed within a geopolitical area, even if the hydrogeological and topographical landscape does not have the natural resource capacity to satisfy the number of people living there. “The Gaza Strip is also one of the most densely populated areas in the world…”4 and there are approximately 3,500 people per square km.

With a growing population expected to exceed 2.3 million by mid-20105 there will be over 5,800 people per square km. As a result of population increases the water deficit will be more exacerbated if more water and resource infrastructure are not in effect within the next year.

“The present situation concerning water availability and quality in Gaza is little short of catastrophic,” Dr. Shaddad Attili explains. Attili is the Palestinian Authority’s policy advisor for water and environment. “As a result of such concerns the water situation in Gaza has been recognized for some years as a critically important issue, but the situation continues to worsen inexorably over time.”

Although the World Health Organization (WHO) calls for minimal water consumption of 100 liters per capita per day (l/c/d) for a quality level of health6; Attili shared that Palestinians average 50 -70 liters (l/c/d). Moreover, Israeli capita usage averages 400 l/d and Israel settlers in the Palestinian Occupied Territories average 800 l/c/d. Thus, Israelis average almost five times more water consumption than Palestinians.

For the 3.7 million Palestinians living in Gaza and the West Bank they consume approximately 260-290 MCM/yr; and this figure includes domestic, agricultural and industrial consumption. However, 6.4 million Israelis have a total water consumption of 2,129 MCM/yr.7

“A large groundwater aquifer basin underlies the West Bank and supplies high quality water to both Israelis and Palestinians. It is composed of three sub aquifers: the Western, the Eastern and the North-eastern Aquifer Basins.”8 Since Israel controls the water, they allow Palestinians in the West Bank 114 MCM/yr only – they have to purchase another 30-40 MCM/yr for the West Bankers and 4 MCM/yr for Gazans from Mekorot, the Israeli water company.

The Palestinian Hydrology Group established the Water and Sanitation Hygiene Monitoring Project where people conducted field surveys from over 640 Palestinian communities. Their reports reveal that Mekorot “…has seriously reduced the quantities. In many cases Mekorot has completely stopped the provision of water to them altogether. Many of the surveyed Palestinian communities that still get some water from Mekorot receive insufficient quantity, and have expressed their fear that Mekorot will completely stop providing water to them.”9

When these communities cannot rely on Mekorot water service, they depend on other options, such as rainfall in community water cisterns - if they are available and accessible.

continues at.....

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=NET20051103&articleId=1178

Tony, after reading your posts, I must agree with Pissed Off American. You are sadly ignorant of the situation in Palestine; not surprising, since the U.S. media is staunchly pro-Israel.

The facts can be boiled down to:

Israel illegally occupies Palestinian land and it is colonizing it.

Israel wants the West Bank because Palestinians sit on top of 3 aquifers. Israel has none.

Palestinians live under a brutal military dictatorship and resist it by non-violent and violent means. Under international law, they have a right to resist by any means available.

Israel has the second largest fleet of F16s in the world, it is the fourth largest nuclear power (courtesy also of the UK who provided the heavy water), and sixth largest military.

Israel's military might is courtesy of the U.S. which provides it with over $6 billion/year.

Palestinians are among the poorest on Earth. Gaza Strip is the second poorest.

Israel uses deathsquads and snipers to kill children for the hell of it as documented in recent HR reports. It also uses children as human shields. It also incarcerates them. There is a 2 year old in jail with a serious disease that requires medication and the Israelis won't provide it.

Another example of the brutality of the occupation: In Hebron, 600 colonialists use 85% of the water; 240,000 Palestinians have to make do with the remainder and are forced to share bath water.

Israel long term plans has been to "atomize" (Odev Yinon's word) other oil-rich countries in the Middle East. First Iraq. Then Lebanon, Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Egypt. Purpose: hegemony and oil resources. So yes, Iraq was for Israel and for oil. US and Israel coincided in their interests: power and oil.

And we are only talking of the OPTs. Apartheid within Israel exists and it is quite dehumanizing. It splits families for one.

"Tony, after reading your posts, I must agree with Pissed Off American. You are sadly ignorant of the situation in Palestine; not surprising, since the U.S. media is staunchly pro-Israel."

Posted by maria

I think Tony has dissappeared from the topic. Perhaps he could not figure out a way to blame the Palestinan's thirst on "Palestinian mass murder gangs and Jihadists".

Sorry to disappoint you but I have been away from the net. One thousand thanks for the many informative links on the Palestinian/Israeli water rights issues.

These issue, (and this why if you go back to my original post I raised the issue in the first place before being falsely slimed as anti-Palestinian) - cuts to the heart of Israel' willingness to allow a truly independent Palestine.

This is the issue that (again I mentioned in the original post) never or rarely gets mentioned and one that would force Israel to make open declaration of water rights in the lands in the Gaza. Since Israel is dependent on those aquifiers, - the issue is inexrticably linked to the evolution of an independent Palestine.

My point, and again, I re-iterate here that (I support Israel's right to existance, and view the Palestinian cause through the lens of one seeing Palestinain mass murder gangs (socalled terrorist organizations) repeatedly destroying any hope for peace, stability, or a political settlement) I would add that - I also support an independent Palestine, and the Palestinian people which is also clear in my posts.

That said I also support and simply point out what many of you validate above that Israel is ruthless in its' determination to hunt down and kill every mass murderer who threatens Israeli's.

The point I am attempting to make, and one that keeps being distorted into false dialectics of pro-or-anti-Israel or pro-or-anti Palestinain positions is that Israel is the military power in the region, and can and will enforce its ruthless dominance if mass murder gangs continue to slaughter innocent Israeli's.

If you can all calm down and relax your hatred of Israel for a few moments, and imagine the possibility that most Israeli's are tired of the bloodshed on both sides, are more than willing to revert to the pre-67 borders, and recognize an independent Palestine, - there is the real possibility of progress along these line.

However, - and this is my point - and again if you revisit my posts I do not defend Israel's responses on moral, political, or economic grounds - but simply point out the factbasedreality that Israel will use it's potent and dominant military to defeat mass murder gangs who threaten Israel.

If the Palestinian people, and leadership pursue political remedies - their just cause and the end result of an independent Palestine will become a reality.

If they continue to tacitly support mass murder as a tool to achieve these objectives - (Israel, like it not - right or wrong - justified or not - WILL continue ruthlessly hunting and killing every single mass murderer who threatens Israeli's), and there will be no peace, and no independent Palestine.

Finally, - unlike the Palestinian and jihadist mass murder gangs who purposely target children and use their own children and people as human shields, - Israel does not, and will never employ these kinds of unholy and despicable tactics.

You comment here Maria -
{Israel uses deathsquads and snipers to kill children for the hell of it as documented in recent HR reports. It also uses children as human shields. It also incarcerates them. There is a 2 year old in jail with a serious disease that requires medication and the Israelis won't provide it. )- is wildly offensive and patently FALSE.

I challenge you to present any evidence (outide of Hamas, Al Aqsa, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad or other mass murder gang disinformation coven) supporting this wild and scurrilous claim.

Israel does use death squads if you want to use that term and sniper to kill mass murderers, but does not and will never target children or any innocent people.

You confuse the Palestinian and jihadist mass murder gangs and death squads who have no restraint, with Israel who does.