"What I am saying is that no torture or harsh interrogation
techniques were employed by any U.S. interrogator for the entire
second term of Cheney-Bush, 2005-2009."

Are you absolutely sure about that, Mr. Wilkerson? Or does
Cheney`s argument actually refer to some secret program that
nobody yet are aware of?

And what about outsourced interrogation techniques in the second
Cheney-Bush term?

I definitely have to agree with you on the state of your party. The time is now for a new leader to emerge to first bring the party together and then recover the members, because to everyone else it seems like the GOP is being run by Limbaugh and Cheney, neither of which are fair, level-minded and, sadly, willing to listen to or consider any opinion other than their own. I fear for the voice of the everyday Republican, who feels disconnected and without someone standing up for them.

The ever important question though is whether the new leader will be of the same far right fabric as Cheney and Limbaugh, or if he or she will be of moderate sensibility, someone who can energize those that left the party to vote for Obama.

I'm not a Republican, but frankly, I hope its the latter. I'd love to see a strong leader for the GOP. Because, I love a good fight.

"We're at 21% and falling--right in line with the number of cranks, reprobates, and loonies in the country."

There is a definite correlation there.

I too and concerned over the fate of the Republican Party, but I would not go on the Rachel Maddow's show to legitimize the falsehood that Cheney and Limbaugh are the face of it.

Cheney's statements extracted by torture -

If we are generous enough to assume the man has a
conscience, it should be tortured, and we might
also assume his ravings are a feeble
rationalization to assuage his guilt. Or, he may
be tortured by the fear of prosecution, which he
so richly deserves.

But in any case, statements made under torture
cannot be trusted, since torture, in its
extremity, abrogates any motive except self-
preservation.

However, I would never attribute any selfless
motive to this man, and have never trusted him, in
any case.

What I'm most interested in is how Dick will reinvest himself in the
Halliburton money-machine that he devested himself of upon
taking office. I think we have a unique opportunity to follow the
money, and see how a true reprobate abuses the powers of his
station. If for no other reason than to keep it from happening
again. And there's a Pulitzer in it for somebody.

What Cheney and everyone forgets is that, after the 1993 World Trade Center Bombings, there were no further attacks on American soil. About 7 yrs. No water boarding necessary. What is needed is more Republicans to stand up and take back the party. Rush and Cheney are taking down the party in flames.

Now I'm left in the undesirable position of defending Cheney. He didn't say "seven and a half months." He said, "seven and a half years." Either way, he's still a liar and a traitor. But I'd just like to note that your publication needs copy editors.

This kind of mistake makes the "fact" statement later in the same paragraph seem laughable, because you didn't get your facts right. I appreciate very much what Col. Wilkerson has to say, but you shouldn't publish stuff like that and leave it up to your readers to correct you.

What scares me most about Cheney at this point is that he seems to be running for something. Let us pray it is not the Presidency.

What I don't get is why programs are still having Cheney on. He isn't "news" and he has nothing new to say that will help the Republican party or the nation in general. It's easy to see why he wants to be on every possible show he can, but it's not quite as easy to see why the shows want to have him.

In respect to Cheney himself, I thought Josh Marshall of TPM expressed it well, with his observation in A Very Small Man.

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2009/05/a_very_small_man.php

This is a party without ideas, and anyone who has any ideas that aren't on par with the very, very far right, or the entertainment portion of the party, are shot down before they even get out of the gate.

Republicans need to listen to those within their own party who show some common sense and live in the real world. Anything else is just..well..not worth the bother.

Great essay by Lawrence Wilkerson. But we should also focus on getting to the real truth behind 9/11 because that was the fuse that started these wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. And if it wasn't for these wars, we wouldn't be talking about torture. Bottomline question: What did the previous administration know about 9/11?

Meanwhile, this posturing fraud piece of shit Obama is seeking to block the release of the photos. So much for "transparency", eh? Is there any promise he hasn't broken?

"What I don't get is why programs are still having Cheney on. "

Because you and The Washington Note, and numerous other blogs and media of both progressive and conservative leanings, are talking about him. No doubt the news stations have concluded that Americans can't get enough of Dick Cheney, and that torture is the country's favorite topic.

The Truth About Richard Bruce Cheney?

This historical revisionism requires us to believe that it was the "Cheney-Bush" administration which has morphed into the "Cheney-Limbaugh" Republican Party. Other players like Powell, his horse-holder Wilkerson, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and all the other assorted neocon miscreants were only used by Cheney, the story goes. The worst administration in US history is all the primary fault of one Richard Bruce Cheney.

Horsepucky. It was a group project.

Now we're to feel sorry for the party that brought us two wars, a million dead and millions displaced, and ask: "When will we hear from those in my party who give a damn about their country?"

Now that's an excellent question, but it's just a bit off topic, and also a bit tardy for the dead, injured and displaced, as well as those who have lost their jobs and their homes.

Let's ask another, more pertinent, question: Are there any in the Republican Party who give a damn about their country, and if so, where is the evidence? And please, leave Lincoln out of it. Don't sully the man so.

Well, torture is the outrage du jour in America these days, something that all reasonable Americans can now safely agree to be awful, apparently. But the United States just spent the past several years slaughtering many tens of thousands of Iraqis, people who never attacked this country. The war was a stone cold lie; a total put up job with no legitimate defensive purpose; a piece of Bronze Age barbarism fought simply because we wanted to put our oversized cowboy boot on the neck of that country and its government, and then use that foothold to make further bloody mischief in the region.

Those dead Iraqis were therefore murdered. When is someone important going to be dragged before an international court and sent to jail for the Mesopotamian butchery?

now that we have heard from the daughter too on this subject. I cant't blame her for sticking up for POP she is trying to keep her father out of jail.Which i am sure he deserves but wo't happen too bad.And i totaly agree with the comments by doug dobey. how rich did the vp get by halaberton recieving all those contracts.

Bravo Mr. Clemons for taking azmodeous, - I mean cheney to task for his pathological lying and perverted penchant for torture.

Until the American people have a real investigation into the massmurder and mayhem of 9/11, and specifically azmodeous - I mean cheney's involvement in Global Guardian Vigilant Guardian, Vigilant Warrior, Northern Vigilance and Northern Guardian, we will all be subjected to the socalled MSM's sick desire to give this satanic beast, chickenhawk, wanton profiteer, pervert, and massmurderer a platform from which to issue his slime and spew. When there is a real investigation into 9/11, cheney will hang for treason and massmurder and direct involvement in the horrors of 9/11. It is, was, and always will be all about the oil! Hopefully, wiser more human minds will to silence and put this satanic beast back in the keep before azmodeous, - I mean cheney and his fascist hordes succeed in perpetuating the sequel to 9/11 which they are no doubt plotting now.

As for the gop, - you're dead creatures walking, you're zombies so long as you bow and cowtow to the freaks and perverts in redneck America and the twisted monsters in the evangelical or socalled fundamentalist churches. The kind of ignorant freaks that stoop to proclaim that Jesus would torture. As long as the gop appeases these pathological liars and twisted freaks - you're doomed. America is not a fundamentalist christian nation, nor do the freaks in the evangelical socalled fundamentalist churches have anything to do with Jesus or Christianity. The evangelicals, like the gop en masse are pathological liars, and rigid fundamentalists and like al quaida and other jihadis' fascists, supremists, and perverts.

The gop is dead as long as it aligns with redneckamerika and the evangelical freaks.

Thank you, Dan Kervick, for saying something that needs to be said over and over until it sinks into the general public consciousness.

The GOP has to go down in flames, utterly and completely, before it will be remotely possible for a different GOP to rise from the ashes. Frankly, I see more purpose in an expanding Democratic Party, where actual debate and a broad spectrum of thinking is still permissibe, if not always practiced because of that residual nervous tick the asendency of the Nixonian/Reaganite (Bush I was the gatekeeper) Republican executive machine inflicted on the old guard in the Democratic Party.

A Republican Party of Susan Eisenhower, Lincoln Chaffee (who couldn't stand the Republican Party anymore but was rightly quite critical of his Democratic colleagues who enabled the invasion of Iraq and so turned independent, like Jim Jeffords), Chuck Hagel, Olympia Snowe, and a few others represent what a worthwhile Republican Party might look like. But that simply isn't what the Republican base is about. Charlie Crist is being villified by rank-and-file Florida Republicans for not being a "true conservative."

I actually think the concepts of a conservative and a liberal party are caca de toro. The only useful purpose of two parties is so that when someone in a particular party fails her or his constituents and that party, at that level of government, is locked into an ideology or counterproductive mindset, an alternative exists. In the case of reasonable Republicans, that became Obama for president because the other party put forward a candidate more in line with their thinking regarding what a president should be about. Of course that would not have happened had the reality of the misguided national Republican not been shoved you-know-where by the economic debacle and the abject failure of Cheney and company's foreign policy (and Cheney was and is just the front, the water carrier, the trusted true believer, and the cold-blooded opportunist).

Cheney is getting attention because, among other things, news is entertainment, and Cheney is fodder for that.

More importaintly, Cheney is taking the offensive in an unsurpirsingly arrogant way. While good republicans may lament the harm to the party, if it is so, good Americans of all stripes should lament the false face of patriotism that Cheney continues to spew, and will, until Obama let's the wheels of justice confront him and his ilk. Cheny is virutally daring Obama. Obama has so far failed this test, and lately has shown signs of burrowing in with the phoney patriots.

without 2 respectable parties, there is no
legitimate debate about issues that need to be
addressed. maybe the large hole left in the
middle will allow for an independent party to
replace the gop. I certainly hope so.

I’d like to ask an ‘Emperor has no clothes’ question: “Why is the U.S. still fighting wars in Afghanistan and Iraq?” For the life of me, I no longer understand the strategic rationale for either war. Or why the Congress keeps appropriating more money each year to keep fighting them.

My understanding is that the best estimate of the total economic costs of these two ongoing wars may be as much as $3,000 billion. If this is the case, on what basis are these two wars a sound expenditure of taxpayer funds?

I really would like to know the answers to these above questions.

" Or does cheney`s argument actually refer to some secret program
that nobody yet are aware of?"

Then why is dick talking about it? He's already committed treason-
--and now MORE treason? Tar and feather him, and drop him off
in the mountains of Afghanistan.

How can Lawrence Wilkerson, a pariah of the Republican Party himself, find the gall to speak so self-righteously about who is and is not endangering it? First of all, the claim that Obama is weakening national security is based upon the fact that allowing your enemies to know your interrogation methods will give them ample forewarning of the limits they need to prepare for should they be apprehended. Honestly, most of us would have preferred them to be banned in secret over having the world know what to expect in a detention center interrogation. Would you advocate giving the defensive line your playbook beforehand? Second, contrary to what many have argued, the enhanced interrogations worked in the case of KSM. That they have not been used since 2002, but argued for their availability, is the tacit acknowledgement by the Bush administration that regular interrogations do work and they are willing to use them. Leaving open the possibility for EITs in ticking time bomb scenarios is reasonable and, by the way, favored by the majority of Americans as well as Leon Panetta. To boot, Nancy Pelosi (despite claiming otherwise) reportedly pushed for harsher tactics. Is Wilkerson really arguing that Cheney is endangering the Party by pressure from his right flank…Nancy Pelosi and Leon Panetta!?

Finally, this is about Wilkerson’s seeming obsession with tearing down conservatives he disagrees with. Rather than addressing Cheney’s claims on the merits he is resorting to name calling and demagoguery over his wealth. This seems to be a pattern with him. Rather than doing the honorable thing and informing his superiors at the White House about the real identity of the Plame leaker, he was content watching political targets take the hits for Armitage’s leaks. Remember Colin Powell and his own silence on the matter?

Yes, Republicans have work to do with alignment at 21%. Thirty-two percent of respondents in the same poll he cites describe themselves as conservatives, 22% as liberals. Are liberals willing to take on the same introspection they claim Republicans need?

Chris -- I totally disagree. I believe in the restoration of a healthy
and sensible Republican Party. All parties wrestle internally over
what their dominant identity will be. Wilkerson is/was a
Republican. So too Chuck Hagel. So too Susan Eisenhower. They
have every right --and I would add, a fundamental responsibility -
- to try and take the party of Lincoln back from those who ran it
over a cliff.

So thanks for participating, but in my book -- you are wrong about
the issue of Wilkerson's right to demand a different course from his
party.

best, steve clemons

Another excellent piece, Steve. Cheney is still pushing for war with Iran:

Cheney in Manhattan: 'A giant conspiracy' on Iran:

http://tinyurl.com/pwblh6

"They have every right --and I would add, a fundamental responsibility - to try and take the party of Lincoln back from those who ran it over a cliff"

So what do we do about Obama running the Democratic party over the same cliff?

Cheney is associated with the 'JINSA (Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs) crowd' which Colin Powell conveyed (for Washington Post correspondent Karen DeYoung's bio book about him) was in control of the Pentagon. Dr. Stephen Sniegoski discusses such as well in his 'The Transparent Cabal' book which has the following favorable review in the latest (March, 2009) issue of Middle East Policy (publication associated with the Middle East Policy Council that Ambassador Chas Freeman was the president of until recently):

Review of Transparent Cabal in Middle East Policy:

http://www.itszone.co.uk/zone0/viewtopic.php?t=105741

AIPAC's Push for War with Iran:

Here is a Google video for the English version of that Dutch AIPAC documentary (must watch especially for what Lawrence Wilkerson mentions about WW 3 at the end!):

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3994543425032066015&q=&hl=en

Additional at following URL:

http://tinyurl.com/yvlm6d

Without any respectable parties citizens become independents, and guess what? Independents are now 40% of the electorate.

And of course Dick Cheney doesn't want to address the primary motivation for the tragic attacks on the World Trade Center on 9/11 (and earlier in 1993 as well) which was US support for Israel's brutal oppression of the Palestinians:

James Bamford included 9/11 motivation question at the bottom of the following URL:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/spyfactory/ask.html

http://tvnewslies.org/tvnl/index.php/editorial/reggies-commentary/8864-kafka-for-dummies-the-absurd-debate-over-torture.html

this along with col. wilkerson's statement are excellent, concise, accurate and too the point!

what about the anthrax attacks? Doesn't that count as an attack after 911? Why don't we know what happened in this strange story? I don't get it. Most folks forget about this additional outrage and what the eveidence seems to suggest; namely that American agents used American anthrax on it's own citizens to scare up support for the illegal invasion of Iraq. Rouge scientist? I don't think so.

Posted by sav, May 13 2009, 11:06PM - Link
Now I'm left in the undesirable position of defending Cheney. He didn't say "seven and a half months." He said, "seven and a half years." Either way, he's still a liar and a traitor. But I'd just like to note that your publication needs copy editors.

This kind of mistake makes the "fact" statement later in the same paragraph seem laughable, because you didn't get your facts right. I appreciate very much what Col. Wilkerson has to say, but you shouldn't publish stuff like that and leave it up to your readers to correct you.

sav, I looked everywhere on this page and could not find a reference to seven and a half months vs seven and a half years. What exactly were you referring to in your post?

Steve, you're a great guy, but as usual we will just have to agree to disagree. I'm all for introspection, just not the type Wilkerson and Hagel are arguing for. If these so-called Republicans are in favor of a return of the party of Lincoln, what would they think of his advocacy for suspending habeas corpus or inflicting martial law during wartime? My guess is that Lincoln is now celebrated enough that his setting-aside civil liberties is an overlooked offense, though it was protested just as virulently during the civil war.

Anyway, good to see TWN in State of Play. Hope you are well friend.

Great post, Mr. Wilkerson.

Two thoughts:
First, it's fundamentally absurd that America or D.C. cannot win an 'argument' about torture. It's turned the 'thinking' class into a laughingstock. To resolve this, you need to get Gov. Ventura in the same room as Dick Cheney and Lindsey Graham.

You want a lesson in how to repair the Republican Party? Just watch Gov. Jesse Ventura's recent interview -- all of both parts.
Part 1 -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9yfMdNC6cQ
Part 2 -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejahDWoYk2A

It'll be no contest: such an encounter would result in the thorough humiliation of either torture apologist.

Why? The ring of Truth can't be denied. When Ventura asserts the facts flat-out, the sophistry nor cheap excuses thrown down by Graham and Cheney are exposed as the patent abuse of public trust they are.

Add in a few 'ordinary' Americans if you want. But the exclusion of better voices just enables Graham and Lieberman and a slew of blatant hypocrites to openly drag this country into KGB and Gestapo territory.

Second thing:
So you'll pardon me on this, but it'll take more than shutting Cheney up to repair the Republican party. It'll require reconstructing folks like Colin Powell & Brent Scowcroft -- whose prevarications are a huge part of the problem. They'll go to the ends of the earth to a) lie; b) pretend torture, death squads and illegal invasions of the wrong country .. either don't exist, are somehow all right or were ever justify. They'll squirm and deploy a thousand euphemisms and degrade us all with cheap excuses -- anything but own up to the truth, to their reponsibility TO US. Anything but adhere to the law or hold themselves accountable under the law.

Ventura can be hot & cold, and uneven; but he stands head and shoulders above any other Republican, in terms of rhetoric, integrity -- and brain-power. The standard betrayal of core American values has led to a SYSTEMIC problem: moderate /establishment political & legal figures have been wholly over he precipice for decades. Dick Cheney has just exposed the ugly face of a country that forgot why it was important to form a more perfect union. Torture specifically does not belong here: it's the ultimate betrayal of those fought in 1776, among them my ancestors.

If Jesse Ventura can lay it on the line like that, why can't you? Why can't Colin Powell? When he shucks & prevaricates & reverses course from 1996 Lindsey Graham only proves he -- & we -- have got something to hide.

And as long as you hide it, Mr. Wilkerson, be they photos or torture videotapes or the treasure trove of files & memos documenting abuse of poower -- you will never, NEVER be able to repair the Republican Party, or gain redemption in the eyes of the country or your God. It's just the straight-up truth: no one died defending America so some lunatic could send out death squads and torture nuns, not in Vietnam, not in El Salvador and not in Iraq (or Egypt or anywhere else in the CIA Gulag).

You don't have to be a Derrida scholar to realize: Jesse Ventura is The Antidote; Dick Cheney is the poison. (Not in the same package, granted, but then TWN is not exactly Plato's Pharmacy, either.)

Ventura gets it on gay marriage -- so why can't D.C.? If Republicans were really for limited government, why are they sticking their nose in our bedrooms?

Travel to Cuba -- If Ricardo Gonzalez, Paul Soglin and Jesse Ventura got it -- in 1978 and th 1980s -- why can't D.C.? Republicans would rather take away the liberty of American citizens that admit Batista's bloody cruel regime didn't deserve defending. You may not like Castro's politics, but you're on the wrong side of history if you prevent both countries from moving forward. We didn't do that with Mao or Kruschev, but for Cuba we eagerly distort our most cherished values and self-mutilate our own liberties -- thus assisting Cuban hard-liners. Stupido.

Just watch Gov. Ventura's videos -- a bit uneven, but watch the whole thing.

Then ask youself: who do you trust more? Who gets it? Who would lead our country in the right direction? Ventura? Or the next lying son-of-a-bitch who tries to pretend that we didn't torture, or that torture's ok or legal or effective? Or that we have evidence Saddam Hussein has wmds and is a mortal threat?

My money's on Ventura.

One last thing:

You don't just get a Get Out of Jail Free Card, Mr. Wilkerson, simply because things have gone badly for your party and Dick Cheney's been exposed as an unstable extremist without a shred of honor or integrity. You actually have to DO the REPAIR work; change some stripes, speak honestly and call your cohorts when they prevaricate for political gain -- and when they sacrifice basic Constitutional principle for expedience or b/c some lawyer said it's ok.

Good first step, though -- I really like this post. When real Republicans remember a country called America, it'll be obvious as hell . . . because they'll be talking like Jesse Ventura.

John B. I totally agree.

I figure either GW/Cheney were so embarrassed by the anthrax letter incidents that killed five innocent Americans that they didn't want to emphasize their unsafe record that the USA had been attacked by terrorists under their watch TWICE in 2001, or they knew darn well the dark forces in the WH basement dungeon did mail the NJ anthrax letters in late 2001 to (1) get the Patriot Act passed and (2) start an illegal war based on lies.

Steven Hatfill got his settlement out-of-court, so Ashcroft and his minions were wrong accusing him and the Bruce Ivins family didn't believe in his involvement as a chemically different anthrax in the letters was not what Ivins had in his lab. And it turns out hundreds of people had access to the letter anthrax.

So like more and more Americans are concluding, GW/Cheney knew a lot more than they claim -- the same alibis and denials as with the torture plans.

If Cheney were waterboarded (as Jessy Ventura suggested this week he'd do), Cheney would admit to. . .killing JFK. If GW was waterboarded, he'd choke on his own lies.

Ahhhhh, honesty.
Thank you.

What I find truly strange about this is, as Anne Richards once aptly put it about another Bush and another time, Where Was George? Does anyone else find it strange that we've spent weeks talking about Cheney as if HE was president? Is Bush completely irrelevant to this controversy? We always suspected that Bush was a figurehead president. We knew that Cheney accumulated unprecedented power, coupled with no accountability or transparency but, with a shout out to the late Anne Richards: Where WAS George?

It'll be more cost effective keeping Bush/Cheney in Federal prison than to have Secret Service personnel protecting them 24/7 wherever they go.

I really hate those "Sith Lord" and "Darth Cheney" allusions people make in the pop media -- they trivialize what Dick Cheney really is: the most dangerous and corrupt public official in the history of the United States of America.

May 14 2009, 9:39AM
“Why is the U.S. still fighting wars in Afghanistan and Iraq?”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

To preserve "our superior way of life".

Western induced greed is root of U.S. aim to control the world's energy and mineral resources.

The focus needs to change from "keeping America and our way of life safe"....to...."how can we ALL live well---not better".

Western paradigms and values need to be overhauled.

Until then, perpetual war and "war profiteering" will prevail. The military/industrial/corporate complex rules.

and how many times was the USA attacked during Clinton's time at the helm?????

Remember, in politics a good offense can be the best defense.

Rich, great rant and right on target. I agree with you as I am certain many others do too.
Thanks for telling it like it is.

What an abosolute bunch of creeps you democrats are. Remember the muslim terror attacks on september 11 2001? I do... YES to war in my name!

"What I am saying is that no torture or harsh interrogation techniques were employed by any U.S. interrogator for the entire second term of Cheney-Bush, 2005-2009."

Funny you should qualify this statement with "any US interrogator" when we all know that contractors were used and we know that Israeli interrogators were employed so that they could wrap detainees in Israeli flags and demean them among other things.

Where the hell is Colin Powell? What a pussy. Cheney bitch slapped him when he said he didn't even know Powell was still a Republican. He was a pussy as Sec of State(not to mention a lying sack of shit traitor ie UN speech) and an even bigger pussy now. he could write an Op Ed spilling the beans on all this shit and shut Cheney up real quick.

Horsepucky. It was a group project.
_
thank you. while its nice that Larry Wilkerson is
trying to go all Madonna and reinvent himself with
Steve's help, lets not forget that he was Colin
Powell's fact-checker for Powell's UN speech on
Iraq. And by the time the 2004 election came
around, Wilkerson was well aware of how badly that
intelligence had been manipulated, yet he remained
silent throughout the 2004 election cycle, rather
than tell the American people the truth.
_
IMHO, Wilkerson's refusal to act in 2004 when he
could have done some good makes him culpable in
the actions of Bush/Cheney.

what did colin powell know, and when did he know it?

I realize the importance of destruction in every rebirth, but I
continue to be amazed at the the level of destructive force
found in the Bush/Cheney administration. It is a toxin they
simply seem unable to contain. We need and have every right to
know what he is protecting in such a rabid manner. I fear,
however, that Obama's reasoning for not releasing the torture
photos is a precursor for not exposing executive abuses of
power under Bush/Cheney.

There are those who think America is on the verge of a
Gorbachev moment of peaceful change or revolution. If I
remember correctly Gorbachev came decades after Kruschev
exposed the horrific and hidden crimes of the Stalinist era. Now,
America can not in any way be compared to the Stalin era, but
there are systematic crimes that do need to be surfaced to allow
America to make the necessary institutional changes and
confront the challenges in the coming decades. Otherwise, these
institutions will continue wasting public energies fortifying
themselves against exposure - Cheney and covering up his role
in the energy task force, an illegal war in Iraq, lies about WMDs
and Saddam’s relationship to Al-Qaeda, torture, is just ONE
example. These entities are clogging up our bureaucracy and not
contributing to solutions as America addresses the present
challenges. I can not say how this will occur, and I don't really
care to look back with blame, but in order to move forward we
need to address the past.

David kurtz over at Talking Points Memo hit-on an ancient sore
spot from the cold war era with his post Time Marches Slowly.

"It still rankles me two decades after the fact that Bill Casey died
before he could be held to account in the Iran-contra scandal.
Here’s hoping that Rummy and Cheney live long enough for the
wheels of justice to finish grinding."

I completely concur with David’s sentiment.

If memory does not fail me, Casey suffered a seizure while being
examined by a CIA physician the day before he was to testify
before the House Select Committee on Intelligence.

Didn’t Casey’s surgeon also die a few weeks later?

- just asking......

I wish I could read Lawrence Wilkerson's post more sympathetically than I do, because he makes many more points I agree with than not (and what is more because he teaches at William and Mary).

There is a lack of reflection on his part, though, that bothers me. Within the universe of any administration, bureaucratic opponents may well be seen to be the enemy. Henry Kissinger's conduct toward William Rogers in Nixon's time, or Brzezinski's toward Cyrus Vance in Carter's, or Casper Weinberger's feud with George Schultz throughout most of the Reagan administration all suggest how intense such feelings of enmity -- sometimes arising from calculation, sometimes not -- can get.

From the outside, though, all officials of any administration generally look as if they are on the same team, and the American public has the right to assume that is the case. If it is not the case, and one or more officials decides the administration he serves is acting contrary to the public interest, resignation is the appropriate course. Wilkerson, and his chief Colin Powell, did not follow that course until the worst decisions and abuses of the Bush administration were long past, and incidentally Vice President Cheney's influence had begun to decline.

Some measure of recognition on Wilkerson's part that he and Powell bear a responsibility for the mistakes, and worse, of Bush's first term would be at least seemly. They were not bystanders; they held offices of substantial influence. Beyond their place in the organization chart, as well, they fought bureaucratic battles with Cheney and lost the great majority of them. In Washington, losing may not make you a bad person, but being right and losing over and over means you're in the wrong job.

I can appreciate that some things happened in Bush's term that about which State was kept in the dark. I don't blame Powell or Wilkerson for all of that; no high official ever starts out with the expectation that his associates are incompetent or part of a criminal conspiracy. His outraged tone now, though, betrays no sense at all that the first Bush term's disasters were in any sense his disasters, and Powell's, also. Wilkerson may not like it, or think it's fair, but they were.

Thank you so much for such a funny piece. Made my day

Col. Wilkerson, why didn't you speak up sooner?

"First of all, the claim that Obama is weakening national security is based upon the fact that allowing your enemies to know your interrogation methods will give them ample forewarning of the limits they need to prepare for should they be apprehended. Honestly, most of us would have preferred them to be banned in secret over having the world know what to expect in a detention center interrogation."

Chris, we are not using those torture techniques anymore, so talking about them is not going to endanger anything... its like working in a Coca Cola factory and giving out the secret recipe for Kentucky Fried Chicken... it just doesn't apply to the current situation. The fact is, if true that no EIT's were used from 2004 on, then this is devastating to Cheney's argument and proves him to be a liar and only trying to undermine the President to protect himself.

Sorry, Mr. Wilkerson, but I call bullshit. It's not just Cheney and Limbaugh and a few senators peddling torture as policy. The Republicans are walking in lockstep to oppose even investigating these crimes. You speak of a different, better Republican party, but this exists only in your mind, or memories. The real Republican party is that group of elected representatives your see on TV defending torture with the (R)s after their names. They are the real Republicans.

I realize the importance of destruction in every rebirth, but I
continue to be amazed at the the level of destructive force
found in the Bush/Cheney administration. It is a toxin they
simply seem unable to contain. We need and have every right to
know what he is protecting in such a rabid manner. I fear,
however, that Obama's reasoning for not releasing the torture
photos is a precursor for not exposing executive abuses of
power under Bush/Cheney.

There are those who think America is on the verge of a
Gorbachev moment of peaceful change or revolution. If I
remember correctly Gorbachev came decades after Kruschev
exposed the horrific and hidden crimes of the Stalinist era. Now,
America can not in any way be compared to the Stalin era, but
there are systematic crimes that do need to be surfaced to allow
America to make the necessary institutional changes and
confront the challenges in the coming decades. Otherwise, these
institutions will continue wasting public energies fortifying
themselves against exposure - Cheney and covering up his role
in the energy task force, an illegal war in Iraq, lies about WMDs
and Saddam’s relationship to Al-Qaeda, torture, is just ONE
example. These entities are clogging up our bureaucracy and not
contributing to solutions as America addresses the present
challenges. I can not say how this will occur, and I don't really
care to look back with blame, but in order to move forward we
need to address the past.

David kurtz over at Talking Points Memo hit-on an ancient sore
spot from the cold war era with his post Time Marches Slowly.

"It still rankles me two decades after the fact that Bill Casey died
before he could be held to account in the Iran-contra scandal.
Here’s hoping that Rummy and Cheney live long enough for the
wheels of justice to finish grinding."

I completely concur with David’s sentiment.

If memory does not fail me, Casey suffered a seizure while being
examined by a CIA physician the day before he was to testify
before the House Select Committee on Intelligence.

Didn’t Casey’s surgeon also die a few weeks later?

- just asking......

I know it's cliche, and I know that this deserves a bit of an eye roll, but JUSTICE WILL PREVAIL in this case. I don't see any legal loophole for the prosecution - or at the very least a tar and feathering - of Bush officials as it pertains to torture. (And if there are some solid arguments, please bring them to my attention - Steve - or anyone else for that matter.)

The entire world is waiting idly by as the drama of torture undfolds in this country. They are waiting to see if America really is the purveyor of laws and justice we so vehemently push on the rest of the world.

When a Vice President's office doesn't get the intelligence they want (from the most powerful intelligence organizations in the world) on Saddam's WMD and links to Al'Qaeda, they decide to go on their own personal intel crusade. They listened to that crazy cook at the INC (Iraqi National Congress...what was his name?) who told the VP's office whatever anally conjured story Cheney wanted to hear. The very next day, Sith Lord was on Meet the Press spitting the mobile anthrax and yellow cake uranium venom that sealed his control over the American populace. All while the CIA and FBI were jaw-dropped and wide-eyed at the gall of Cheney for actually going public on intelligence that had absolutely no value.

It's disgusting and sickening, but you've got to admire it's success from a PR standpoint.

Wilkerson is correct - Army intelligence took and released the photos. It was pushback against
the Bush-Cheney Administration by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the last independent institution powerful enough to resist the neocons.

When no WMD were found in Iraq by May 2003, this outraged a number of ranking military and intelligence officers. They knew they had been scammed by the neocons. The JCS and CIA inititiated an investigation of criminal fraud by the White House in manipulating intelligence and the Plame outing. By 2004, the CIA and U.S. armed forces had the evidence they needed to prosecute Cheney's circle, and handed the case to Fitzgerald. The Scooter Libby, OSP-AIPAC investigations and public outrage over Abu Ghraib crippled the White House politically, and boxed them in until they left office.

Had this not happened, we would now be at war with Iran.

- Mark

Note to Richard Bruce Cheney: drip, drip, drip.

Steve Clemons I partly agree with your article but Al Qaida don't exist. Al Qaida is the CIA and its easy enough to find this out if you do a little research as pleanty of non-mainstream investigative journalists have covered this topic. The USA invaded afganistan because it decided that it didn't want to pay the Taliban the transit costs for an oil pipeline through Afghanistan. The Bush Administration decided to wipe the Taliban out within a year. Maybe they forgot what happened when the Russians invaded Afghanistan. Years later people are still dying and no pipeline is possible. In the meantime China and Russia have secured pipeline deals North of Afghanistan.

As Cheney pushes his Magical Torture Tour, and American pays attention, the lobbyists for insurance, energy, and banks are busily plying Congress, who are caving to the changes that we elected them to push forward.

Cheney is clever, distracting us from our agenda with a typical ploy, moving our humanity to respond, and stop paying attention.

Time to put this aside for awhile, and focus on our agenda.

Dick Cheney is a truly amazing man...the living definition of "true believer". He would have been comfortable during any historical era of zealotry so long as he was in control. It seems that about 80% of the American people see him as the truly evil man he is....thank goodness. If the GOP chooses to follow Dick and Rush over the cliff perhaps a new right-centrist party will evolve. If not, we will be looking at years of one-party government...the choice rests with the Republicans, and, so far, it seems they're making a very bad choice.

What Cheney ignores is that 9-11, the worst
attack on the USA in history, happened on
HIS WATCH!

HIS ADMINISTRATION BUNGLED THE DEFENSE OF OUR NATION!

HE ( and Bush ) ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR 9-11.

Thank you, Mr. Wilkerson, for so courageously taking on the
disgusting lies being thrown about by Dick Cheney. Thank you for
caring more about your country than your political ambitions.
Thank you for doing what you can to ensure that this never
happens again. Thank you.

If we do not pursue a vigorous prosecution of
these war crimes we will have compromised our
constitutional values and forever regret it.

Our laws and our values must carry weight, they
must be honored. Not because of what other
countries might think of us, but because of what
we will think of ourselves and how a culture dies
from within.

These individuals did evil, not to do good,
because there is no such thing. There is only
truth and freedom, we have to decide if will honor
these two rare spirits today as a nation.

Powell's Team is speaking out! Thank you Sir for doing so. Send Best to Powell we remembered that he voted for President Obama.

I too was a Republican until 2002, and then an independent. In 2005 I became a Democrat. The party of Lincoln abandoned its Lincolnian ideals long ago. First, it abondoned its advocacy for ex-slaves and focused solely on supporting big business. It failed America during the Great Depression by opposing any government efforts to alleviate the suffering of the average American. And with Nixon's Southern Strategy in the late 60s and the inclusion of the Religious Right at the end of the 70s, it began it's abandonment of the the liberal/moderate/Northern wing of its party. It's not a stretch to say the the modern Democratic Party reflects Lincoln's ideals more than the modern GOP. That's why I quit the Republicans seven years ago. I'm glad I did. Now it's considered the Party of Torture. Who wants to be associated with that?

I too was a Republican until 2002, and then an independent. In 2005 I became a Democrat. The party of Lincoln abandoned its Lincolnian ideals long ago. First, it abandoned its advocacy for ex-slaves and focused solely on supporting big business. It failed America during the Great Depression by opposing any government efforts to alleviate the suffering of the average American. And with Nixon's Southern Strategy in the late 60s and the inclusion of the Religious Right at the end of the 70s, it began its abandonment of the the liberal/moderate/Northern wing of its party. It's not a stretch to say the the modern Democratic Party reflects Lincoln's ideals more than the modern GOP. That's why I quit the Republicans seven years ago. I'm glad I did. Now it's considered the Party of Torture. Who wants to be associated with that?

Col. Wilkerson is right...the GOP needs a man with "intestinal fortitude" to send Dick on his way, unfortunately, Wilkerson's not the man for the job.

The Republican Party has gone from the party of 'no' to the party of 'no clue'.

I find it interesting that the party that flaunts Christian values are the ones who embrace torture....hope Christ does not come back...they will torture him again!

Dear Chris Toppings,

You may want to check your timeline regarding KSM.

You stated "Second, contrary to what many have argued, the enhanced interrogations worked in the case of KSM. That they have not been used since 2002, but argued for their availability, is the tacit acknowledgement by the Bush administration that regular interrogations do work and they are willing to use them. Leaving open the possibility for EITs in ticking time bomb scenarios is reasonable and, by the way, favored by the majority of Americans as well as Leon Panetta."

The problems that I have with your statement are these well documented facts: The Bush administration authorized harsh interrogation techniques in April and May of 2002 and have also stated these EITs worked because they prevented an impending attack on Los Angeles in 2002. However, according to memos released by the Office of Legal Counsel last month KSM was captured in Rawalpindi, Pakistan on March 1, 2003. Well after the Los Angeles attacks were "thwarted".

Also, in many of these de-classified reports there are numerous instances where the purpose of these "interrogation" attempts were to establish a link between Al Qaeda and Iraq and not to being used in "ticking time bomb" scenarios. According to Army Psychologist Maj. Paul Burney, "we were not being successful in establishing a link between Al Qaeda and Iraq."

Seems to me, pertaining to your statement, that the timeline regarding KSM doesn't add up. These "techniques" were more than just "available". They were using them regardless of approval before 2002, were still using them well after, and not for "ticking time bomb" situations as you would suggest.

So my question to you Chris Topping is this: How did these EITs used on KSM work? If you agree they were successful surely you can give us actual examples?

Wow, it is time for the truth to be told.

This is a dangerous man. He gets more air time now then he cared to as Vice President. I'm with Joe Biden on this one. It's going to take the Republican party a long time to recover. Where is their true leadership?

Wow~ A republican with a brain!

Posted by Stephen Edison Ryan, May 15 2009, 11:32AM - Link
What Cheney ignores is that 9-11, the worst
attack on the USA in history, happened on
HIS WATCH!

HIS ADMINISTRATION BUNGLED THE DEFENSE OF OUR NATION!

HE ( and Bush ) ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR 9-11.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

To the evil-doers, defense of our nation was not "bungled". Cheney and the insiders know that 9-11 was a BLACK PSY-OP. It succeeded in manipulating public opinion to support the illegal Iraq/Afghan wars, not to mention countless other constitutional illegalities and crimes against humanity. In the minds of Cheney and his NEOCON BRETHREN EVIL-DOING CRIMINALS - - -THE CHENEY/BUSH ADMINISTRATION WAS A SUCCESS.

It only took a few years since the original broadcast on PBS for this to make it through the mainstream media whitewash.

You would think the presiding chief of staff at the State Dept. calling the whole Iraq War a "hoax" would make the network news.

Lt. Col. WIlkerson also didn't make it to network news when he reported that the Bush administration knew Gitmo detainees were innocent and interrogated them anyway.

Now he finally makes it to CNN with the report that we were beating anyone we could find until they agreed Iraq and 9/11 were connected. That forced testimony then becomes the main foundation justifying the "shock & awe" invasion of Iraq. As it all unravels, we need to ask CNN what took so long and why ABC, CBS, NBC still won't report on the fudged intel...

Geez, when is the GOP going to understand that folks actually may
entertain the idea of checking out the republican party if folks like
Lt Col Wilkerson and Colin Powell were their figureheads instead of
their regular lying, soulless, visionless, spineless boobs they'd
rather have represent their ideals.

People want folks that see the whole picture, not people that
blindly protect their perspective of the whole picture.

Darth is just being Darth...he's our Enfant- Terrible-in-Chief...the GOP has gone the way of the dinosaur...Tyranasaurus Hex is dead meat and it's just a matter of hours before rigor mortis sets in...unless of course the Dems do some CPR with their enabling bullshit. Time to bury this old buzzard....strike up a dirge, maestro.

Meanwhile, back at the podium. I'm with Wanda on The Lamebone...Flush Rush...

easy e --
"To the evil-doers, defense of our nation was not "bungled". Cheney and the insiders know that 9-11 was a BLACK PSY-OP."

Yo're not saying Cheney was involved are you? Really? Really??

watch this and pass it along --

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4617650616903609314

"Second, the fact no attack has occurred on U.S. soil since 9/11"

Why do people (usually Republicans) keep insisting on this? It is NOT a fact. There were at least three terrorist attacks in this country AFTER 9/11, starting with the anthrax letters (which began on 9/18/01), the shooting at the El Al counter at LAX (7/4/02), and the DC Sniper attacks (October, '02).

I guess facts are subjective when seen through the prism of Republicanism. Try again.

"Posted by Dan Kervick, May 14 2009, 12:56AM - Link

Well, torture is the outrage du jour in America these days,
something that all reasonable Americans can now safely agree
to be awful, apparently. But the United States just spent the
past several years slaughtering many tens of thousands of
Iraqis, people who never attacked this country. The war was a
stone cold lie; a total put up job with no legitimate defensive
purpose"
--------------------

Well said. But since torture, as Wilkerson and several other
credible sources have indicated, was a crucial part of the
preparations for the illegal war, those two issues are
inseparable. Torturing prisoners to establish a link between Al
Qaida and Saddam was a prelude to the horrors that followed.
Highlighting and investigating this singular event may open the
eyes of "reasonable Americans" and make them realize the
monstrosity of the crimes committed in Iraq.

**Second, the fact no attack has occurred on U.S. soil since 9/11--much touted by Cheney--is due almost entirely to the nation's having deployed over 200,000 U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan and not to "the Cheney method of interrogation."**

Bzzzzzt! Wrong!
Anthrax attacks. HAve they fallen down the memory hole?

I'm hoping for the perfect storm. Cheney finally being held accountable for ordering TORTURE to attempt to justify his ILLEGAL WAR.

Two injustices for the price of one.

Cheney is a draft dodging coward. Paying his words any heed makes you an idiot.

So let's apply Darth's One Percent Doctrine to Darth...he can dish it out, but can he take it???? Most sadists are wimps at heart.

As for Pelosi...if she knows "they" mislead Congress all the time, why was she so determined to keep impeachment off the table?

"Cheney finally being held accountable for ordering TORTURE to
attempt to justify his ILLEGAL WAR." (Elle)

Exactly.

1) Rumsfeld immediately after 9/11 seeing this as an
opportunity to attack Iraq.

2) John Yoo and others hired to "legalize" torture.

3) "The Cheney methods of interrogation" used to establish
links between Al Quaida and Saddam.

4) Wilkerson`s boss, Colin Powell, hired to make the case for
war at the UN.

Wilkerson says in his post: "What I am saying is that no torture
or harsh interrogation techniques were employed by any U.S.
interrogator for the entire second term of Cheney-Bush, 2005-
2009."

Let`s for a moment suppose that this is correct. Wilkerson
claims that they stopped using torture because the interrogators
were afraid of the legal consequences. Perhaps he`s right.
On the other hand: Why would torture be of any use to the
Bush administration in his second term? Evidently, these people
had long ago lost any interest or will to capture Osama bin
Laden, and they had got what they really wanted: a war with
Iraq.

Col. Wilkerson, thank you so much for your service and experience. Thank you for speaking up for the truth. It is much needed.
Cheneywatch.org

You bet - it started a long time before...

How it all started:

"Gore laughed and said, 'That's a no-brainer. Of course it's a violation of international law, that's why it's a covert action. The guy is a terrorist. Go grab his ass.'"

That is from Richard Clarke's book (national media loved Clarke - but only was interested on one political angle on his many revelations). Clarke was speaking of a meeting in the White House where VP Gore helped Clarke convince Presiodent Clinton to more actively embrace the policy of "extraordinary renditions, were operations to apprehend terrorists abroad, usually without the knowledge of and almost always without public acknowledgement of the host government."

Clinton approved.. and policy was formed.

That was before 9/11. Are we really surprised we went one more step after 9/11?

So the 5000 plus Americans dead in Iraq don't count as keeping Americans safe? how many war dead does Dick Cheney consider a cost to America? And can someone explain what it is about Iraq that made this guy so obsessive about going to war to the extent of inventing reasons?

Timing: "The detainee had not revealed any al-Qa'ida-Baghdad contacts yet. This ceased only after Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, under waterboarding in Egypt, "revealed" such contacts. Of course later we learned that al-Libi revealed these contacts only to get the torture to stop. There in fact were no such contacts." (In time to be used in a worldwide propaganda campaign for an illegal/illegitimate War). Timing: "(Incidentally, al-Libi just "committed suicide" in Libya. Interestingly, several U.S. lawyers working with tortured detainees were attempting to get the Libyan government to allow them to interview al-Libi....)" (In time to be "incidental," purely coincidental, and wholly convenient). From (Before) 9/11, to the Patriot Act, to the Memos, to Torture, to Iraq, to Color-Coded Terror Alerts, to Fake News, to Ohio, to the Military Commissions Act, etc. – they knew what they were doing - All Along.
http://seaclearly.wordpress.com/2009/04/23/no-torture-prosecutions-no-justice

This thread is probably why the TWN crashed today.

We did renditions and spied on Americans before 9-11. That is a bigger point of emphasis to consider. It didn't maske us safer.

A lot of people don't want to admit that much of it. We were using Bush nonplausibly(how far the higest office hath fallen) to separate the monied class from all others, and to do the war for a variety of reasons, and to sell off our jobs.

It happened on your watch. All of you took part in it. The putsch at Dade Co., flying GOP staffers in on Enron jets to set up the global venture project in Afghanistan for said company's energy interests.

Corporate cowboys don't count as terorists? this small town of under 30,000 bordeing an MSA lost FOUR MILLION off its firefighter pension funds. THAT HAPPENED EVERYWHERE.<This reason is why Obama should use tribunals to go after the Enron types, go ahead and use all the vague language to apply the law's letter to those fiscal predators.

You guys are just icing on the cake for the marriage of business and gov't. Contractors, walled neighborhoods, it's not just for Jerusalem or Baghdad anymore.

See also central America in the 80's or today.

That is where we are headed....

Oh, anthrax on journalists doesn't count? How about the explosion at Niagra power facility that knocked several states out? Nobody wants to discuss the Alaska pipeline fires in Canadian forest land? We're not as safe as you think. Huge amounts of infrastrucure strategically converge and we've kept Americans dumbed down just enough to not be all that concerned....

You want to solve this problem, Censure the SOB.

Cheney's daughter helped implement the takeover of the IC through setting up parallel functions in state before 9-11, and really got to full speed after that.

The Departmen of Near East affairs was set up soon as Cheney could get past the courtroom drama of Bush v. Gore.

May of 2001. I've got a copy paste of the Intelligence COmmunity .gov site when Condi helped see this through. Cheney's Daughter, newly elevated Dep't of Near east affairs. Yes Niger and Morocco were covered.

There goes the people helping the EU energy czar(Aznar's boy from Spain, the man appeared at NGO functions with Ledeen all across that time span) with the background lies that the UK was using on yellowcake and Saddam, etc.

Hold up there, Mr. Wilkerson --

You can hardly claim the 'hijacking' of 'your' Republican Party didn't occur without your explicit participation and active consent. Colin Powell was a key member of the group that choreographed in detail the torture of prisoners -- Powell wasn't a bystander or a dupe. (see link at end)

Colin Powell approved of and carried out torture. He was an active participant and he raised no objections, in principle or in practice. Else you'd have us believe he's simply an ineffectual functionary, a mere tool. Powell can never get his reputation back; he's irredeemable.

And respectfully, you, as Powell's right-hand man, couldn't've been without any knowledge or role about that or about the bill of goods Colin Powell was selling at the UN. Make no mistake: Colin Powell was torturing to extract false confessions to establish an Iraq-alQuaeda link that did not exist. Not only did he not object, he went before the world to cite false torture-derived info as 'evidence' --- much to the dismay of his underlings at State.

You see, State Dept. analysts Houghton Woods and Greg Thielmann had passed their evidence debunking the aluminum tubes & other claims up the line to Colin Powell. Thielmann said "our jaws dropped; our jaws just hit the floor" when they heard Powell's UN speech. They couldnt' believe it. Colin Powell had access to accurate information -- and I understand that you, Mr. Wilkerson, were the/a gatekeeper of info reaching Powell -- so Powell's decision to present false info to the UN and to the world is damning.

It's not just Dick Cheney. You may be outraged, but he's not the real or only problem: it's him, yes, but Cheney's a symptom of a culture that goes right along with not just torture, but compulsive secrecy and gross illegality that betrays everything this country's about. Hanging this all one guy, as contemptible as Dick Cheney is, is just not gonna fix the Republican Party or the Establishment System in D.C.

Too much self-permission to violate Constitutional or any other law; too much self-justifying secrecy to cover up what can never be defeneded in the light of day. It's a recipe for abuse of power, and it needs to be and will be fixed. THAT is what has damaged our country and our national security, not access to information. You and Colin Powell and pretty nearly everybody else up there have forgotten what America is. And you think that the current rules are actually good and reasonable and acceptable -- but they're not. Just look where they've led you. Think about what you've become. Hundreds of thousands Iraqi citizens dead -- for Powell's lies, your lies, Bush's lies. More than 5,000 American soldiers dead -- for nothing; all made possible because Colin Powell lied and Colin Powell tortured. Which he didn't do without your help. I'm glad you're speaking out, it's long overdue, and you have my respect. But get real.

It's not just Dick Cheney. What allowed him to do this will also allow the next guy to do it. Unless some sort of honest assessment is done and people who tortured -- and yeah, contractors and cia staff all knew it was illegal and weren't some sort of put-upon helpless actors here -- are held accountable. Until that happens, nothing's changed Mr. Wilkerson, and you damn well know it.

Here's Dan Froomkin on who did what:

Top Bush aides, including Vice President Cheney, micromanaged the torture of terrorist suspects from the White House basement, according to an ABC News report aired last night.

Discussions were so detailed, ABC's sources said, that some interrogation sessions were virtually choreographed by a White House advisory group. In addition to Cheney, the group included then-national security adviser Condoleezza Rice, then-defense secretary Donald Rumsfeld, then-secretary of state Colin Powell, then-CIA director George Tenet and then-attorney general John Ashcroft.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/blog/2008/04/10/BL2008041002069.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

I am still as stunned by Col. Wilkerson's face when Rachael says "You're a Republican!" as Rachael would have put it "he looked like he had just found half a rat in his danish".

Perhaps Col. Wilkerson could get together with Scott Ritter and try and find a third honorable Republican who hasn't left or planned to leave and try and come up with a party platform that is not anything from the Bush/Cheney years as they have become the counter argument to virtually any idea they were in favor of.

One telling behavioral tic is the weaselword-dotted language Colin Powell deploys every time he's asked about the issue.

If neither Powell nor Cheney can win a debate with Jesse Ventura, there's something wrong. Ventura -- a former Navy SEAL -- lays out the Truth in a way that blows through the ridiculous crap thrown out by folks like Liz Cheney. Ventura is a larger-than-life character --- but there's a reason everybody's afraid to put him in the same room with Lindsey Graham or Liz or Dick Cheney, or Colin Powell for that matter: he'd mop the floor with 'em.

Part 1 -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9yfMdNC6cQ
Part 2 -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejahDWoYk2A

It's just no contest. You know the Truth when you see and hear it, and it's incredibly refreshing. Ventura and some authentic truth also exposes Graham and Cheney and fellow liars as contemptible frauds.

I repeat myself, but nothing's gonna change until a broader sense of who is a responsible contributor to these debates is able to incorporate more voices and more necesary voices. It's that simple. OUR voices had to be included, up-front in these decisions. OUR voices called bullshit on this even before the war and the torture began. But the media, the cogniscenti [sic], the administrative apparatus and public officials --- all ignored those of us who knew better and spoke up. It's that general arrogance that position and power does not need -- in America -- to respond to public debate or incorporate the best American analysis or adhere to basic American principle -- that arrogance and that refusal is the problem. We have those basic American principle in place precisely to avoid wreaking the kind of enormous damage to our national security that we just witnessed. It's not so hard to live up to that rather than wish it away.

Either you're a torture apologist and wish to harm our national security -- it damn well isn't the photos that endangers our soldiers, it's the friggin' torture itself. Or you stick up for American and demand some functional accountability. There really is no in-between.

Torture loses wars. You only need death squads when you can't find a legitimate reason to go to war or won't fight on the right side of that war. From the Gulf of Tonkin 'incident' to the Saddam-had-WMDs, My Lai to Haditha, it MATTERS how you fight these wars, how you get into a war, and which side you fight on. If you can't persuade Congress to issue a formal Declaration of War, youhave /thePrznt has no business screwing our national security & screwing our soldiers on a whim, on the poor judgment of one man, or on the questionable aims of those who won't put America ahead of crass self-interest.

Maureen Dowd in today`s New York Times:

"In The Washington Note, a political and foreign policy blog,
Col. Lawrence Wilkerson, Colin Powell’s former chief of staff at
State, wrote that the “harsh interrogation in April and May of
2002 ... was not aimed at pre-empting another terrorist attack
on the U.S. but discovering a smoking gun linking Iraq and Al
Qaeda.”

More and more the timeline is raising the question of why, if
the torture was to prevent terrorist attacks, it seemed to happen
mainly during the period when the Bush crowd was looking for
what was essentially political information to justify the invasion
of Iraq.

I used to agree with President Obama, that it was better to keep
moving and focus on our myriad problems than wallow in the
darkness of the past. But now I want a full accounting. I want to
know every awful act committed in the name of self-defense
and patriotism."

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/17/opinion/17dowd.html

"Under Rumsfeld, Pentagon published Bible verses on top-secret intell reports. "

"Starting in the days surrounding the U.S. invasion of Iraq, cover sheets featured inspirational Bible verses printed over military images. . . when colleagues complained to the Pentagon official who came up with the cover sheets, he replied, “‘my seniors’ — JCS chairman Richard Myers, Rumsfeld, and the commander in chief himself – appreciated the cover pages.”

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/05/17/rumsfeld-bible-versus/

Reminds me of the time at work -- only worse -- when a nice young clerk took to adding "Have a Blessed Day" or some such to her her email signature. I worked for a public agency, and complained discreetly since I felt the individual was indeed clueless. Surprisingly the practice stopped. But when it comes from the top, as here, well we know who has the power.

So, Mr. Constitutional lawyer Obama, still not sure we need don't investigations, prosecutions, whatever it takes? The deeper you dig, the dirtier it get's. It's all a pattern of convinced meglomaniacs who justified anything in the name of the crusade"

Democrats also need to be better - stop being afraid to appear soft every time authoritarians are demanding that only the most-hawkish agenda is important. Authoritarians never in history got anywhere without the Moderates who didnt want to look soft.

OH, you have a point.

On the other hand: when was the last time in American history
when you could detect a significant difference between a
"democratic" and a "republican" foreign policy, due to
ideological convictions?

There was once a historical split between proponents of an
active agenda abroad, and a more inwards turning, i.e. non-
active foreign policy - but this distinction may now be obsolete.

You may also find a split between proponents of a more
constrained, pragmatic, "realist" view, and an activist view,
shared by liberal interventionists and neocons. But in general, I
can`t see that American foreign policy has any significant
relation to the respective parties - but more to the
circumstances, the zeitgeist, and the powerful forces behind the
scene.

Why do you think Obama kept Gates as his Secretary of
Defence? I strongly doubt that it`s because the President (D)
was afraid of being perceived as a "soft" leader.

American foreign policy transcends political parties, and thus
also the "will of the people", as it is expressed through
elections. It`s largely an autonomous enterprise, legitimated at
will by opaque concepts like "national interest" and "national
security", as well as by the commonly accepted wisdom that
America has to show "leadership" to prevent the world beyond
it`s borders from sinking into barbary and chaos.

No Americans were killed during the seven and a half years after 9/11? Is this guy that ignorant and a devil? Americans DID die after 9/11! Americans that died on behalf of Americans living in the Continental United States! Americans all around the world have died since 9/11! DICK needs to get his ass on the front line in Iraq and Afghanistan. And he needs to get Blackwater and Halliburton on the same pay scale as enlisted men and go serve the soldiers for 3 tours of duty.

I WILL NEVER VOTE REPUBLICAN AGAIN!

You'll vote Republican and like it. Did I mention Diebold counts enough votes to swing any race?

See also Union Banking Corporation.

WAS THERE EVER A DOUBT WHAT THESE REPUBLICAN HACKS WERE DOING? CHENEY WILL GET AWAY WITH HIS CRIMES AND THE REPUBLICAN GANG WILL PUT ATTENTION ON THAT FINE WOMAN, NANCY PELOSI.

Thank you, Marcus Brody, for a very concise reminder of a most central point in all of this discussion.

"Yadayadayada.....CHENEY WILL GET AWAY WITH HIS CRIMES AND yadayadayada......"

As far as "getting away with crimes", remember, it was Pelosi that took impeachment "off the table", and it sure as hell wasn't because of a dearth of evidence that Bush/Cheney had committed crimes and violated a number of international treaties.

"Yadadayadayada....THAT FINE WOMAN, NANCY PELOSI"

Last time I checked, the definition of "lying skank" was not "fine woman".

The Daily Howler (May 18, 2009)destroys Wilkerson's credibility and exposes him as the dissemlber he is.

"How deeply biazrre is Wilkerson: Wilkerson has been boo-hoo-hooing about these matters for years. In his accounts, he and Powell are always the innocent dupes of dark, malevolent players. (He tends to blame whoever is in the public spot-light that week.) We progressives seem to love the way he lowers the boom on other Bush players. We run to lap up his self-serving tales—even though they’re demonstrably wrong."

It's worth a read.

Cheney's evil history did not start with his self appointed role as vice president. He goes back a long way, and was always secretive and under the radar where legal action was concerned. Google Cheney's Secrets and discover the darkness.

POA we're on the same page again, but would you believe Lanny Davis is too?

http://pundits.thehill.com/2009/05/18/the-cheney-dare/

And then there's this excellent piece by Jack Cafferty/CNN. on brining Dopey and Darth to justice... a man after my heart
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/42768

here larry check out the collapse of this building...world trade building 7 if you wanna believe in fairy tales.

http://www.ae911truth.org/

who would have thunk that che guevara would ever have to bring truth to the american people....

http://www.counterpunch.org/mcgovern05192009.html

Anatomy of a Crime
How Colin Powell Got Duped by the CIA

By RAY McGOVERN

Think back six years. How often did we hear then-Secretary of State Colin Powell tout his intense four-day vigil at CIA headquarters preparing the speech he would give to the United Nations Security Council on Feb. 5, 2003? Retired Army Col. Lawrence Wilkerson, Powell’s chief of staff, who was asked by Powell to herd cats in putting that speech together, recently threw light on why it turned out to be such an acute embarrassment.

Surrogates of Vice President Dick Cheney were insisting on giving prominence to highly dubious reports of operational ties between al-Qaeda and Iraq, but on this particular issue (unlike the phantom WMD) CIA and State department intelligence analysts had stood firm in the face of heavy pressure. Indeed, the CIA ombudsman saw fit to tell Congress that never in his 32 years as a CIA analyst had he witnessed a more aggressive “hammering” on analysts to change their minds and give credence to reporting that was trash.

Colonel Wilkerson, Thank you for your courage and your committment to the truth. You are a breath of fresh air...a rare example in this age of loyalty to party before country..& to those who serve our country, Colonel Wilkerson embodies the charachter of a true soldier, hero material... regardless of his race/color/or political views, he has humbly come forward to speak the truth, in spite of the backlash & personal cost he will certainly face from the GOP. Thank you Sir,
KC Johnson

Thank you for your service to our country. Why is it civilians and not military personnel extol the virtues of "torture?" If military personnel are extensively trained in the enhanced methods of successful interrogation, why are the CIA and FBI cursorily dispatched to supplement military interrogation efforts? The FBI I understand, because their law enforcement activities sometimes brings them into interrogating criminal suspects, but not the CIA.

One would think, introducing different interrogators to a valued suspect, would only add uneccessary confusion to a complicated psychological process. Thus, tending to setback any nominal progress made by the previous one.

Torturing somebody 183 times in one month is a bit extreme even for the most sadistic. One would think, after a couple of "waterboards," if the suspect refuses to give it up, perhaps they don't kown anything or the method is not useful for this purpose.

Still seeing Cheney in the media makes me feel queasy!
I've read an article that puts together evidence to show that Cheney used torture to manufacture evidence for the war on terror. Funny how Obama doesn't want to release the photos- I suppose he is concerned that the American people would be horrified and stand up against torture. His excuse of enraging the terrorists by releasing the photos is lies, because they already know- that is how Cheney stirred up these terrorists to get mad.

Here is the article: Dick Cheney - Tortured Evidence

Unfortunately the link to the article did not go through.
Here is the URL if interested:
http://www.sott.net/articles/show/184730-Dick-Cheney-Tortured-Evidence

US senator rejects Cheney torture claim as 'lie'

http://www.presstv.com/detail.aspx?id=96472§ionid=3510203

Words to describe Dick Cheney and his style

Obtuse
Arrogant
Selfish
Sneaky
Simple
Not Particulary Brilliant
Steadfast
Unwaveering
Stubborn
Mad
Heartless
Go F$%^ Yourself
Delusional
Grandiose Mind Set
Illusuions of Granduer
Protext Legacy at all cost
Legacy
Cheney
Torture
IRAQ
Valerie Plame
Colin Powell
Cheney
Cheney
Cheney
Cheney

Words to describe Dick Cheney and his style

Obtuse
Arrogant
Selfish
Sneaky
Simple
Not Particulary Brilliant
Steadfast
Unwaveering
Stubborn
Mad
Heartless
Go F$%^ Yourself
Delusional
Grandiose Mind Set
Illusuions of Granduer
Protext Legacy at all cost
Legacy
Cheney
Torture
IRAQ
Valerie Plame
Colin Powell
Cheney
Cheney
Cheney
Cheney

Words to describe Dick Cheney and his style

Obtuse
Arrogant
Selfish
Sneaky
Simple
Not Particulary Brilliant
Steadfast
Unwaveering
Stubborn
Mad
Heartless
Go F$%^ Yourself
Delusional
Grandiose Mind Set
Illusuions of Granduer
Protext Legacy at all cost
Legacy
Cheney
Torture
IRAQ
Valerie Plame
Colin Powell
Cheney
Cheney
Cheney
Cheney

One must ask what he had over the Bushes that he was given unlimited control over the CIA and all intelligence as a mere VP with no constitutional powers??????? He has laid down the challenge to Obama of further attacks on the US if he and his buds are touched. This is a man who along with his neocon buds will use the worst garbage out there to fullfill his sinster plans. Just remember they were buds with Sadaam under Reagan, negotiated with the Taliban and created Iran-Contra. The only thing stopping his extortion is Pannetta at CIA, Pelosi, and a few of his aggrieved ex-buds that he spit on like Libby.
And what about that Enron-Taliban pipeline deal he was negotiating before 9-11? What other energy deals were behind 9-11 and our desire to dominate the former Caspian republics that were part of the former Soviet Union? Who else could have stopped the attacks on 9-11?
I hope someone in Congress has the Kahunas to take them on and dig deep.

Wilkerson's testimony is important but al Libi was by no means the only detainee talking about Saddam giving aid and comfort to al Qaeda.

Though the two sides loathed each other there were examples of overlapping interest as I've documented at my site.

Torturing somebody 183 times in one month is a bit
extreme even for the most sadistic. One would think,
after a couple of "waterboards," if the suspect
refuses to give it up, perhaps they don't kown
anything or the method is not useful for this
purpose.

From my side of the water in the UK we see the damage done by the last republican administration as long lasting and quite possibly catastrophic.

As Bush and team bludgeoned their way into the White House all those years ago, over here we were all very worried and very nervous. Our fears were justified.

Suggesting that Cheyney should retire to shoot quail and his friends is an immediate sentiment that I share, but unfortunately that will not repair the damage. It may never be repaired.

If the administration process has promoted more transparency, I think problem like this will not happen. I also read about this on the msbc's news section. Well, people are just hoping for the best solution.

The long investigation has revealed a lot about these men involved in the issue. I don't personally think they are all honest. But it's the governmental body's task to reveal out.

The long investigation has revealed a lot about these men involved in the issue. I don't personally think they are all honest. But it's the governmental body's task to reveal out.