Carter & Tutu on Israel/Palestine

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tutu carter.jpgGood article today in USA Today by Desmond Tutu and former US President Jimmy Carter, on behalf of The Elders who recently wrote about this same subject.
Key lines for me were these:

We urge a renewed effort, firmly based in international law and respect for human rights that first aims to define boundaries between Israel and a new Palestinian state and address security issues. Without such focus, we will see the possibility of a two-state solution slipping even further away.
This approach sets challenges for Israelis and Palestinians, for their regional neighbors, for the international community — especially the U.S. government — and for each of us as concerned global citizens.
Applying international law and human rights principles means that the occupation must end, and the focus of negotiations should be on the boundaries of a future Palestinian state based on 1967 borders,with its capital in East Jerusalem. Such an accord could entail, if agreed, a one-to-one land swap to allow for minor adjustments. Initial negotiations should also aim at security arrangements in which both Israelis and Palestinians have confidence.

Defining the boundaries of Israel and Palestine solves much. There is a growing consensus that a borders/security portal back into peace talks is the only plank left to walk.
– Steve Clemons

Comments

39 comments on “Carter & Tutu on Israel/Palestine

  1. rc says:

    nadine, Dec 24 2010, 5:28PM — and so nadine, where in your strange model of the universe is the possibility that this Jesus was a Palestinian, a Jew and a Christian (believing in himself so to speak)? Please enlighten me as to where these strange ‘Palestinians’ emerged from if not from the same Canaanite stock as the Jews — and of course from numerous conversions of Jews to Christianity and Islam over the 2,000 years.

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  2. PissedOffAmerican says:

    “I suppose it means reading exactly what you do, nothing more, nothing less, and all the same”
    Interesting comment from someone that has embarked on an off topic orgy of unprecedented proportion on numerous threads here.
    Also an interesting comment in the respect that you admit to not even bothering to read a site that is entirely devoted to a topic you are prolific in pontificating about. You don’t see the hypocricy contained in your comment?
    “Happy New Year to you, too, POA!”
    “Happy New year” is overused. It is meant to be a sincere expression of concern and optimism about the level of happiness a person is to experience in the forthcoming year. I try to limit my use of this expression to instances where I am truly sincere in employing it. Of course, generally, I wish ill winds on no one. But it would be dishonest of me to profess to give a shit what kind of year lays ahead for many people. Some people go through their lifes with this weird concept that there are no assholes, that such people are simply misunderstood, or poor victims of unfortunate circumstances or upbringing. I suffer from no such delusions about the assholes amongst us. If I wish them anything, it is the wisdom, in the coming year, to stay the fuck away from me.

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  3. questions says:

    Happy New Year to you, too, POA!
    And thanks for the definition of “informed commentary”!!
    I suppose it means reading exactly what you do, nothing more, nothing less, and all the same.
    Why, you must be the only informed person in the universe, unless you have a twin somewhere.

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  4. PissedOffAmerican says:

    “In my case, I simply never actually read The Palestinian Note website……..”
    Well, that explains more than just your lack of comments at the site. Wouldn’t wanna actually read informed commentary that is polar to your asinine commentary and opinions on this subject, wouldcha?
    Funny, that.

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  5. questions says:

    In my case, I simply never actually read The Palestinian Note website, so it would be hard for me to comment on it…. Funny, that.

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  6. PissedOffAmerican says:

    What slapdash H.R. 1765 reveals about the lobby and public awareness
    As House Resolution 1765, formerly 1731 and 1734, passed in the House by a voice vote enjoining the Obama administration to oppose a unilateral Palestinian declaration of independence, the peace camp looked disheveled and mystified. With every loss in the halls of Congress we reassure ourselves that the tide is changing, that soon members of Congress will see the right of Palestinians to statehood, that the next president will not succumb to the intransigence of Congress.
    Today there are hundreds of organizations educating the American public about the facts of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. They raise the public’s awareness about the plight of Palestinians in the besieged Gaza strip. Some organizations highlight the importance of resolving the refugee crisis and yet others underline Israel’s apartheid regime in the West Bank, undergirded by Jewish-only settlements and Jewish-only infrastructure.
    Almost all existing organizations focused on a just resolution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict are 501(c)(3) educational organizations. Many of these organizations address congressional representatives by asking their members to sign petitions or letters to Congress. However, what is lost on, or neglected by, these organizations is the fact that members of Congress are almost entirely beholden to a powerful pro-Israel lobby whose fabled success stems primarily from its ability to fund congressional campaigns.
    When the time for a vote comes, whether it is a symbolic nonbinding resolution such as H. Res. 1765 or a crucial bill funding Israel’s occupation, the vast majority of members of Congress will invariably vote on the side of Israel. The reason is quite simple: a member of Congress cannot listen to pro-peace organizations as hard-line pro-Israel PACs (political action committees) fund their campaigns, no matter how sympathetic the member is to the Palestinian cause.
    The exception to this scenario would be a broadly mobilized campaign of pro-Palestinian activists. However, if financial regulation and healthcare reform, which impact every American citizen, cannot garner enough public support to thwart opposing lobbies, the Palestinian cause will not mobilize a broad national movement in the foreseeable future. To most Americans uninformed on the issue, it is seemingly too remote, too inconsequential, and too tangential to American interests, although the realty couldn’t be further from the truth.
    By abdicating our responsibility to lobby Congress and fund congressional campaigns, we have relegated ourselves to fighting a formidable opponent while blindfolded with both hands tied behind our collective back. Hard-line pro-Israel PACs not only help elect members of Congress but they indirectly appoint administration officials through Senate confirmation hearings, as was painfully evident during the Chas Freeman debacle. We have been effectively shut out from the halls of power in the United States with grave consequences for all involved.
    continues…..
    http://palestinenote.com/blogs/blogs/archive/2010/12/23/what-slapdash-h-r-1765-reveals-about-the-lobby-and-public-awareness.aspx?CommentPosted=true#commentmessage
    Ever notice how Wiggie and Nadine, or questions, never post comments on the Palestinian Note website??? Is it because the readership there is too informed???

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  7. nadine says:

    Warren, did you know that the PA teaches Palestinians that Jesus was the first Palestinian shahid [martyr]? That’s how they get around the difficulty of denying all of Jewish history when some Palestinians are Christian. If you have ever read the Bible (which the majority of Palestinians have not, Muslims generally don’t) you know that Jesus was a Jew, as were all the first Christians.
    Mustafa Barghouti:
    “We always remember that Jesus was the first Palestinian who was tortured in this land.”
    http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=505
    with many other examples
    The Nazis had the same problem. They inherited their own Jew-hatred from Christianity, and they wished to attract many German Christians, though they themselves were essentially pagan. So they promulgated a Nazi form of Christianity in which Jesus was an Aryan. If you are familiar with the main tropes of Nazi propaganda, it’s easy to see how much of it the modern Arab world has recycled.

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  8. nadine says:

    “Stated in other words, if you really want to assist the I/P peace process, find ways to facilitate the Palestinians to become autonomous beings, who live in the 21st. century and demand a government that is honest, not corrupt, and rational. ” (Warren Metzler)
    Rational vs corrupt. Is that really the choice at hand? How about ‘rational vs Islamist’ or ‘rational vs genocidal’? How about ‘rational vs denial of Israel’s existence’? The Palestinians routinely publish reports about “Palestine” that pretend Israel doesn’t exist (e.g. a recent TV show says “Palestine” is 27,000 sq km, true only if there is no Israel), run around renaming all ancient Jewish shrines, claiming them for Muslim sites with no Jewish connection, claim there never was a Jewish Temple on the Haram al Sharif, there never was a Jewish state in Palestine during antiquity. And beyond that, they routinely claim that the Holocaust never happened, the Jews just invented the story to extort money. The current “moderate” Palestinian president, Abu Mazen, wrote his Ph.D. thesis on that very subject.
    Wouldn’t you agree, Warren, that teaching generations of Palestinians that Jews have not a shred of a right to be anywhere near Palestine is at least as much a hindrance to a two-state solution as is the corruption of the PA?

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  9. PissedOffAmerican says:

    Actually, its comical reading “questions” inane crap about Isr/Pal. Go back a few weeks, and read his unfullfilled “predictions” about where this latest round of “talks” was going.
    Heres a resolution, drafted and written by AIPAC, like so many before, yet questions will continue to deny the insidious power that this foreign agency exercises over our body politik.
    The bottom line, the narrative about Isr/Pal is skewed, dishonest, and sold to the American voters by a massive marketing campaign managed in Israel, and carried out by the various lobby organizations whose purpose is to control the narrative and intimidate our elected officials into full compliance with Israel’s agenda.
    I see Horowitz is going to counter the Seattle bus ads with some pro-Israel propaganda of his own. Of course. Also, I see the Los Angeles Times, after running the piece written by Yousef Munayyer, ran a another piece, the following day, that seeks to marginalize Israel’s continued expansion, advancing the ridiculous idea that “borders” can be discussed while Israel continues to steal land and populate it with radical and racist Jewish settlers.
    This business of “preconditions” is ALWAYS presented as if the Palestinians desire for Israel to stop its expansion is an unreasonable “precondition”, yet we are to accept that Israel’s demand that settlement activity continue unabated, that any future Palestinian “state” must be unarmed, without a military, and unable to defend itself, while recognizing the exclusively “Jewish” nature of the pseudo-democracy of Israel, are not in themselves “preconditions” imposed by Israel.
    Questions has been depositing his silly bullshit here for a coupla years now, and it has become laughably absurd. I have seen him employ extreme variations of obscure and outlandish mental gymnastics to see how many different ways he can advocate for maintaining the status quo. I’m sure we can count on his future natterings to be equally as absurd.
    There is nothing “prescient” in his blather. I suggest you look the word up in the dictionary.

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  10. Warren Metzler says:

    Prescient questions. I wonder if you realize that what you are saying is that we Americans are responsible for how our elected officials vote. And the congressional majority’s persistent need to remain lap dogs of the Israeli government has to be because the majority of Americans still believe Israel’s deceitful image of what is really occurring in that country.
    I still say that until the Palestinians form a government that is rational and not corrupt, and the majority of Israeli’s accept how racist and unacceptable is their current behavior, no amount of foreign pressure will produce a viable peace agreement there.
    Stated in other words, if you really want to assist the I/P peace process, find ways to facilitate the Palestinians to become autonomous beings, who live in the 21st. century and demand a government that is honest, not corrupt, and rational.

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  11. questions says:

    The second a pro-Israel resolution of any sort costs re-election, it’ll stop.
    Meanwhile, it’s pretty politically popular.
    Of course, you have your own read of why it’s politically popular, but popular it is.
    Congress’s job is to do what gets MCs re-elected.

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  12. PissedOffAmerican says:

    “JohnH, I am way less cynical than you. Sorry. I really really love Congress…..”
    Slobber, drool, mince and mewl.
    http://original.antiwar.com/giraldi/2010/12/22/stealth-resolutions-by-congress/
    Stealth Resolutions by Congress
    by Philip Giraldi, December 23, 2010
    Most Americans have a negative perception of Congress. It is not hard to figure out why when one learns that most congressmen spend much of their time raising money so they can be reelected. I for one am not bothered by that aspect of the legislative experience because I believe that if they are out pursuing money they are keeping out of trouble, except when they are simultaneously raising the cash illegally and concealing large packages of it in their freezers.
    When Congress actually sits down and does something, hold on to your hat and wallet. Last week the House passed “unanimously” what might be described as a stealth resolution in that the document was only made public a day before being voted on, allowing no time for genuine debate or review by legislators and voters. When it was finally tabled, it received a voice vote, in which those present say aye or nay, with the speaker declaring whether the resolution passes or not. Unlike a “record” vote, there is no easy way to determine who voted which way or, indeed, who was present when the vote was taken. It is the ultimate democracy in action cop out, enabling congressmen to behave completely irresponsibly.
    The resolution in question was

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  13. PissedOffAmerican says:

    “As for stick/carrot – POA, sticks won’t work in I/P any better than…….blahblablah…..prattle……..blahblah…..natter natter…..”
    Tick tock, tick tock, tick tock……
    http://news.antiwar.com/2010/12/22/settlement-building-soars-in-israel/
    Settlement-Building Soars in Israel
    Just Three Months Into Post-Freeze Era,
    Construction Boom Is On
    by Jason Ditz, December 22, 2010
    It has only been three months since the Israeli government announced the formal end to its partial freeze on settlement construction, but that was all the time it took for the construction to not only begin anew, but to escalate into a full on boom.
    The West Bank land rush is on, and Israel seems to be putting an enormous amount of effort into the most remote settlements, the ones which would seemingly be on the chopping block if Palestinian statehood is ever realized.
    Israel

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  14. questions says:

    Different topic…..
    Haley Barbour… first a link from a nice comment on Salon, and then the main article:
    The comment:
    http://letters.salon.com/politics/war_room/2010/12/22/perlstein_barbour_amnesia/permalink/2bbc909877471dceb5750f8fba3ecd81.html
    The article:
    http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2010/12/22/perlstein_barbour_amnesia/index.html
    Both are totally worth reading. The long history of the Citizens Councils in encouraging segregation, the description of King’s speech that Barbour might have attended, the sexual and racial and class stew that Barbour seems to ignore, gloss, or hint at (depending on his real strategy) is a thing to read about.
    Hope it’s all enough to keep Barbour local, not national.
    And I really hope that as the Republican candidates emerge one at a time to test the waters, they each of them get some serious scrutiny. There are some real problems in their coalition, and it’d be nice for some of that tension to come out over the next couple of years so they can refigure themselves as something a little less unpleasant or tainted or simply awful.
    *****
    Michael Lind has an interesting read of Assange up at Salon/War Room as well. (Too many links if I post this one.)
    I think he misses a long history of the glorification of outlaws as saving the law rather than damning it. From Robin Hood to Dirty Harry and Oceans 11-13, we love us some people who act outside the law because they have a higher purpose. Doesn’t matter the violations, the disrespect, the attitude, the clear nastiness of the actors; because they have restoration as their goal, we love ‘em.
    What Lind should focus on is the fantasy of restoration, the fantasy of originary purity violated and needing correction in the first place.
    There wasn’t a time when…that we need to get back to, and there won’t be a future age when…either.
    Until we deal with this central political/utopian fantasy structure, we’ll keep glorifying people like Assange, and we’ll keep losing sight of the fact that the one thing we have going for us is process, not product. Through slow and painful and long lasting procedure, we can likely accomplish some of Assange’s work without resorting to the romantic fantasy of our being rescued by a truth teller, righter of wrongs, releaser of the sordid facts we all already knew at some level.
    We have courts, FOIA, media, Congress, citizens. If the will can be mustered to gain release of the TRUTH it will eventually be released.
    We are, however, impatient, bored, looking for a great story, not at all in love with our institutions, ready to burn it all down or just give up and watch TV, and so a figure like Assange has a lot of room to pop up. He’s our fantasy of “interesting times” come true.
    And maybe Lind should go back over his Kant — the maxim of publicity is worth thinking through, though Zizek has a different slant on this that I’m working on…..
    (It’s worth watching Hitchcock sometimes to see the various characters who get bored, want something to happen, and then at the end of the movie realize that maybe it’s better to be bored.)

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  15. Mr.Murder says:

    The only way this works is if we can assure the formation of two client states for funneling US taxpayer dollars into, so the MIC can profit twice as much.
    Imagine doubling the per capita expenditure levels!

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  16. PissedOffAmerican says:

    Gads. Ya gotta wonder if people consistently turn and walk away from him when he’s in mid-sentence.

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  17. questions says:

    JohnH, I am way less cynical than you. Sorry. I really really love Congress, even if I really really hate the policy it comes up with sometimes. It comes more from living with 300 million people, each of whom has different interests and preferences than it does from “craps” and “scum”.
    I can deal with absolutely hating certain policies, being disgusted by some number of particular MCs, figuring that sometimes it’s their constituents who are the problem and sometimes their own sheer stupidity or racism or idiocy, but absolutely loving Congress-the-institution and the electoral pressures that check against tyranny.

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  18. JohnH says:

    questions–correction: the Senate will remain NOMINALLY in the hands of the Dems.
    Democraps like these mostly prefer to vote with Republiscum, which is why Democraps never managed to mount a filibuster against anything in the past 10 years.

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  19. questions says:

    OT, but utterly amazing –learn what “a million for a billion” means when applied to Merrill Lynch and the mortgage securities market.
    Can we be done forever with Fannie, Freddie and the CRA? Pleeeease?
    http://www.propublica.org/article/the-subsidy-how-merrill-lynch-traders-helped-blow-up-their-own-firm
    Found via Brad DeLong (required daily reading!)

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  20. questions says:

    nadine, the Senate will remain in the hands of the Dems, by the way.
    Lame duck is still within the constitutional term of office.
    Some Republicans HAD to agree to any Senate action — they could have filibustered every damned piece of legislation and that would have been that. There’s been no violation of anything at all, and the elections were respected in that legislators who are always subject to re-election pressures voted along with the program. And several Republicans crossed over party lines. It really was bipartisan.
    Reid used the same end of Congress OMG get stuff done or stay here forever pressure that always gets used. Nothing unusual at all, much that is beautiful. Shame about the DREAM Act, though.
    As for stick/carrot – POA, sticks won’t work in I/P any better than they work elsewhere. People have to be ready for major adjustments or they don’t work. Political development is its own odd creature, and much that is truly horrific happens while we wait. But horror happens when we don’t wait, too.
    There are good reasons abroad for patience, there are domestic political necessities, as well. We live in a political system, not with a tyrant. I’ll take the system over the highly effective tyrant any time.

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  21. PissedOffAmerican says:

    Here’s the best opinion piece I’ve read in a long time in regards to Isr/Pal. Its to the point, it outlines what MUST be done, (sticks for Israel, and no more carrots), and it presents the TRUTH about what a fuckin’ con-job the so called “moratorium” was.
    It also iviscerates the witch Clinton, without actually calling her the Israel ass-licking coward she deserves to be called.
    Plus, the fact that this piece was ran by the Los Angeles Times should worry the shit out of these bigots, liars, (“the Turkish jihadi who left a martyrdom video before sailing”), and hasbarists like Nadine.
    http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-munayyer-mideast-20101222,0,3454024.story
    Op-Ed
    The U.S. needs to get tough with Israel
    The recent settlement freeze debacle shows the U.S. cannot proceed with its all-carrot, no-stick policy toward Israel if it wants to see a change in its behavior.
    By Yousef Munayyer
    December 22, 2010
    When diplomatic sources revealed that the United States was abandoning efforts for an Israeli settlement freeze, many surely did not know whether to laugh or cry. The first two years of U.S.-Israeli relations under the Obama administration has been a debacle. For the next two, what is learned from that failure, and how it’s applied, will be of utmost importance.
    The failure to get a freeze is not only about the settlements

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  22. nadine says:

    Yes, questions, the Senate did a lot — what the hell are elections that a Democrat-run Congress should pay any attention to them, hm? I don’t remember the Republican Congress pulling this shit in 2006, but then Republicans believe in rules more than Democrats, whose motto is “by any means necessary”. The next two years will see Obama trying to run the government by new regulations. Obama has a bad case of Chavez-envy.
    As for musings on Haley Barbour, you might to well to pull your head out of 60s nostalgia and pay some attention to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion memes that are circulated daily at TWN with Steve Clemon’s blessings by Steve Walt and other bigots in the comments section.
    If it’s about blacks or gays, the slightest offense constitutes a deadly accusation – dogwhistles, codewords, even insensitivity (Barbour’s ‘crime’), etc are counted as seriously as the most blatant racism. But you can say Jews run America or accuse Israel of anything without evidence or even against evidence (e.g. the Turkish jihadi who left a martyrdom video before sailing is treated as an innocent victim), and it all passes muster. Anybody objects, and you just say indignantly that Jews call all critics of Israel anti-Semites.
    Wake up and smell the coffee, questions.

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  23. questions says:

    The Senate did EVERYthing, pretty much! Harry Reid rocks!
    Anyway, for a laugh out loud moment for real, read Jonathan Bernstein’s piece:
    http://plainblogaboutpolitics.blogspot.com/2010/12/reform.html
    These are reforms we can live by!

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  24. questions says:

    (Oh, I did SO mix metaphors in that penultimate paragraph!!!!! Dear Grammar Police, for this sin, I apologize and will do “pen”ance!)
    I will never again seed clouds with baby steps, I will always seed clouds with particulate matter, and take baby steps.
    I will write this sentence 10 times over by quill pen to prove my fealty to the immutable laws of English Grammar and decent sentence construction.
    I will not use copy and paste in this process. (Note to any teachers, do not let your students do their spelling make up work on the computer!)

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  25. questions says:

    In my view, anything that’s going to happen regarding I/P needs to be acceptable to the legislatures/voters in sufficient quantity as to guarantee re-election to its supporters.
    What would really add to this discussion here is to track down a couple of Israeli political scientists whose specialty is the Knesset and Israeli voter behavior.
    There are many rational-sounding plans that attract me — stop the settlements is beautiful. I don’t like the settlements, the crazed settlers, the government incentives for settling. It’s ugly, inhumane, and some of these people are truly crazed.
    I like borders. It’d be good to know the line between “settlers” who have crossed it, and Israeli citizens who are merely building apartments, condos, houses and gardens the way citizens do. It’s a humane thing to bound a nation so that the people on the fringes know who’s in, who’s out, which laws are laws and which are “laws” and which belong to the other country. The police and courts do better, the military does better, the government does better, and the basic sense of identity that comes from finitude and the ability to plan that comes from certitude are all fine things. I like borders as much as I like doing away with settlements.
    I even like the idea of tying any settler activity to an equal and opposite W/B investment. A building goes up in an Israeli neighborhood and an equal and opposite one goes up in an Arab neighborhood. That way, everything is matched, there are fewer externalities, politically speaking. Israeli political development creates Palestinian political development rather than Palestinian regression. One-to-one or two-to-one…. There’s money in the world for this. And the W/B could probably use the jobs (couldn’t we all at this point?!)
    As for Gaza, they’re rocketing again. What a fuckin’ mess. It’s above my pay grade, but I get the feeling that if there were an election forced, maybe Hamas might be a little less popular, but…maybe not. I leave this to others, but I personally think that linkage with Gaza is a mistake. It seems to be enough of its own situation that, heartbreaking as it is at the level of “My People, the Palestinians, all of us together”, I think the phrase I want is “Politics ain’t beanbag”. It’s tragic, sad, horrible, and division of what seems united is deeply painful. But division may well be necessary, and unity may well be a fantasy.
    I like granola, rainbows and kittens, a transit stop near every garage band and some tofu in every pot (or some pot for every cancer victim?)
    However, until the populations involved agree with me, my vote doesn’t do much.
    Back to the drawing board…. How did DADT first happen and then unhappen? How does social change really work? What happens when the government outstrips its people by too much at once? What happens when a PASSIONATE minority gets airplay despite its status as a minority? What happens when there are real security concerns and it’s unclear if the government really has a handle on them or is merely lucky for now? What happens when people deeply feel conflict over resource distribution?
    I would guess that somewhere in that list of questions are some of the things that run through Israeli society, and on whose answers any kind of successful agreements rest.
    The people who have the “right” answers to these questions are likely Israeli social scientists more than novelists or poets. The humane letters people will have beautiful answers. They will be my answers for the most part. But the social scientists will have the data, the Knesset procedure and incentive systems, the numbers on settlers and political pressure, the fractures in Israeli society over who serves in the military to protect whom.
    Ordinary Israelis might very well have some of the same kinds of racial reactions that huge numbers of ordinary Americans have. We totally ‘get’ racialization of political behavior. Haley Barbour is a case in point.
    We need to extend the same level of understanding to Israelis that we already extend to ourselves. We know WE have racial issues, border issues, resource issues. We know we have congressional procedure, media interventions, military pressures, regional issues….
    Through all of this, we have now negotiated health care changes, the end of DADT, probably a new arms treaty with an old adversary, a mediocre management of the internet (given the money involved, we weren’t going to protect complete non-discrimination), and bunches of other changes in how we live.
    I saw somewhere that major legislation needs to sit around for 6-8 years to “ripen” and maybe Israel has a longer lag, especially given the real security issues.
    So find those social scientists, and start seeding the clouds of discourse with the baby steps needed to get those borders, end the settlements, ease the discrimination.
    Meanwhile, on the WB side of things, keep up the nation building. Keep being incredibly trustworthy regardless of the behavior of the Israelis. Don’t do tit-for-tat, just cooperate. Obama used this strategy and got huge amounts of legislation through in ways that have not riven our social peace beyond the Tea Party-inspired occasional brick toss, and a lot of internet invective.
    Not bad.

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  26. rc says:

    Who are these two, and where is ‘Mr Quarterette’ — Tony ‘War Crim’ Blair?
    I’d be more impressed if Nelson Mandela turned up facilitated a genuine solution — he is the only one with enough street cred to do something real.
    He’d only have to sit in the room to dissolve this ‘problem’.
    But then again he might not get out alive … surviving two apartheid regimes in one life time may be too much to expect — even for him.

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  27. Neo Controll says:

    “But murder is more serious. ”
    Like the murder, point blank shooting, on the flotilla, of an American that got no press in the US, right?
    They’re suspecting an Arab in this case, with convenient props. Would you have rushed to print if they suspected an Israeli, which it could still turn out to be? Pretty evident why this is getting press. Fits the neocon playbook.

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  28. nadine says:

    “American tourist Christine Logan found stabbed, bound in Israel; friend also attacked but escaped”
    Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2010/12/19/2010-12-19_american_tourist_christine_logan_found_stabbed_bound_outside_jerusalem.html#ixzz18pYIL3Jq
    POA, I will await your usual outrage over the unprovoked murder of American citizens in the Middle East.
    p.s. I hold no brief for gangs beating up innocent people anywhere. But murder is more serious.

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  29. nadine says:

    Aaron David Miller tries to warn Obama against pouring what’s left of his political capital down the drain chasing the mirage of American bridging proposals:
    “As Obama weighs his peace process strategy in the new year, he will be told four things by those who are pushing him to be bold and decisive. First, the parties were “this close” to an accord at the last Camp David, they will say, thumb and first finger almost touching. Second, that a tremendous amount of work has been done in the past 10 years by Israelis and Palestinians on the core issues which have brought the parties closer than they’ve ever been. Third, that everyone knows the broad outlines of an agreement. And, fourth, that trying and failing is better than not having tried at all.
    Myth merges uneasily with fact here, and bad analysis and logical lapses seem to rule the day. Let’s address these four points, one at a time. First, on no issue were the two sides “this close” or even nearly so at Camp David in 2000. Second, yes, a great deal of fine work has been done on the core issues — but by negotiators who risked very little either because they knew the hour was late and there was no real chance of success, or because they were unempowered to negotiate. Third, the fact that we have a better idea of what a solution might be in no way makes it easier to get there. And, fourth, as for the old college try, that’s no substitute for the foreign policy of the world’s greatest power. Failure costs, and sometimes, it makes matters worse. ”
    http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/12/20/wooing_the_gods_of_the_peace_process

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  30. nadine says:

    “Defining the boundaries of Israel and Palestine solves much. There is a growing consensus that a borders/security portal back into peace talks is the only plank left to walk.”
    A growing consensus among whom? The self-satisfied poobahs of the Beltway? Steve, you are only making a fool of yourself when you talk like this.
    “Borders and security” is just a gambit to try to get Israel to give away its leverage without getting any resolution on the main issues: refugees, Jerusalem, or, above all, an end to the conflict.
    Hey, the Palestinians are for any Israeli concessions where THEY make no promises. Surely you can see that? But why do you keep talking as if it would actually lead to peace, instead of Hamas takeover of the West Bank and a new war? You sound like one of the floating philosophers of Laputa.

    Reply

  31. PissedOffAmerican says:

    Teen gang arrested on suspicion of attacking Arabs in Jerusalem
    Seven of nine suspects are minors who allegedly used a 14-year-old girl to lure Arabs into a schoolyard, where they would pelt them with rocks, bottles and pepper spray.
    Israeli security force have arrested nine suspects over the last two weeks suspected in a string of attacks against Arab in central Jerusalem, it emerged Tuesday after a gag order on the investigation was lifted.
    Seven of the nine suspects are minors and all are residents of Jerusalem or West Bank settlements. The suspects were released to house arrest following questioning.
    An initial investigation has found that the nine individuals formed a gang that used the prowess of a 14-year-old girl to lure their prey. She would approach the chosen victim, ask them for a cigarette or invite them for a walk, and then lead them to where the assailants were waiting

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  32. Continental Op says:

    The two-state solution is as dead as Monty Python’s parrot. This leaves us with options:
    (1) An apartheid state.
    (2) A binational state.
    (3) Another Palestinian expulsion. (Can be slow motion and partial.)
    (4) Regional nuclear war.
    (1) and (3) are complementary.
    (1) can be followed after much pain and suffering by (2).

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  33. Mary says:

    Ah–Now I see why Dershowitz published another screed today about what an anti-Semite Tutu is.

    Reply

  34. Neo Controll says:

    Pearlman is an example of that sort of neocon who enjoys slandering by proxy.
    Pearlman types are destructive to discourse, though they feel themselves invincible in the manner of right wing-neocon-radical zionist flagrancy. Summarily excising them from the tenor of the discourse hereabouts would seem appropriate, ’til he found the next ISP to spew from.

    Reply

  35. samuelburke says:

    The smoking cable: Israel said it had

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  36. samuelburke says:

    It was because of the pressure applied by the elders, which is why
    this is so important that the elders come out on the side of peace
    and resolution in palestine.
    it is big that these wisemen take such a humanitarian stance.
    It will probably add pressure on a global scale which might cause
    Israel to act humanely, finally.
    Merry Christman Jimmy and Desmond.

    Reply

  37. JohnH says:

    Whoa! International law? Does that mean that Israel would have to obey those UNSC resolutions it has stonewalled for the last 60 years? And would Israel lose its identify if it had to abide by the law?
    Not gonna happen…

    Reply

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