Dispatch from Iran: Some Police Soften on Neda’s Day

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This is an email from Tehran drafted by a young woman protester who is a friend of a friend of mine. I have agreed to run it on TWN and know that it may run elsewhere in ther intenet. I have confirmed its authenticity. It is interesting to note the relatively soft posture of the police — Steve Clemons
neda_dies.pngThis is going to be a slightly disjointed email, I’m sorry in advanced. It’s already well passed midnight here and we just finished returning from the streets protesting. But I wanted to make sure to get this out tonight.
Today marked the 40th day anniversary of the killings of such youth as Neda Agha Soltan and Sohrab Aarabi in Iran’s post-election demonstrations. We headed to Behesht Zahra Cemetary in the afternoon to join the 4pm ceremony at their gravesites.
Behesht Zahra is about a one hour drive south of Tehran and as we neared the cemetery, about five police cars and officers were directing traffic. Waiting to enter the cemetery compound in the traffic, one of my companions pulled down the window and half jokingly asked the police officer what was going on. He smiled back and said, “nothing, just go towards row 257.”
For those not familiar with Behesht Zahra, it’s an enormous cementery with wide avenues and squares. Knowing it would take us a while to find our destination, the police officer decided to help by telling us in which row we could find Neda’s grave (others in Behesht Zahra would help lost drivers by directing them to Neda. That’s all people said: “Neda ounjast” (Neda is there), pointing in the direction of her grave). Throughout the ceremony it was obvious the police force was very sympathetic with the people (as opposed to the anti-riot police and the revolutionary guard factions that were present in large numbers and were standing by the graves of both Neda and Sohrab).
By the time we arrived to their graves, it was 4.30pm and about 150,000-200,000 had gathered there. Most had on green ribbons and shouted in unison: “Neda-ye ma namordeh, ein dolat-e ke morde” (Our Neda is not dead, it is this government that is dead).
Her grave was covered in flowers and candles, as was the grave of Sohrab, just a few feet away. The demonstration was held about 75 feet from the graves and was where the majority of the people had gathered. The main difference between this gathering and the other gatherings in the past two months was that the slogans for this gathering were very highly charged and at times extremely revengeful. People shouted: “ma bache-haye jangim, bejang ta bejangim” (we’re the children of war, fight and we’ll fight back); “mikosham ani ke baradaram ra kosht” (I will kill he who killed my brother).
There was no more talk of reclaiming the vote, but of getting rid of this “coup” government; the most numerous chant was “Death to the dictator.” The anger could be felt at this gathering (which for me was a very ominous sign of worse things to come) and there was a very palpable lack of fear among people. Both Mir Hossein Moussavi and Karoubi had shown up at the gathering earlier in the afternoon.
We stayed for nearly two hours and decided to leave when we saw the security forces getting larger in number. As we left, we heard that they had hit some with batons and we could feel the tear gas in the air. A few minutes later reports emerged that Jafar Panahi, the award-winning filmmaker was arrested, as was Mahnaz Mohammadi, a documentary filmmaker and a women’s rights activist. They have both been taken to an unknown location.
As we left the cementery, the honking of the cars began: most cars were heading into Tehran to try to get as close to Mosallah as possible (the large mosque in central Tehran where Mousavi and Karoubi had asked to hold a ceremony of those killed last month — the interior ministry did not give the permission for the gathering, but people had decided to show up there at 6 regardless).
Every car driving out of Behesht Zahar was honking their horns and all drivers and passengers had their hands out of their cars in the peace sign. The police tried to discourage drivers from driving the main highway that would lead to central Tehran, but very few listened. Soldiers standing along the streets flashed the peace sign back at the honking cars with large smiles on their faces. It was obvious the soldiers and police forces were with the people.
As we reached my grandmother’s house, which is just a few streets away from Mosallah, we saw people running from motorcycles (the Basij), who tried to taser them, and the protestors encouraged us to turn our windows up so the tear gas wouldn’t hurt us. Residents came out of their homes and began small fires on the corners (to help against the tear gas). The streets were completely overtaken by protestors who were in a cat and mouse game with the security forces, all on motorcycles. We parked the car and went onto Valiasr Street (the main boulevard in Tehran that runs from north to south). The city was covered in a haze from all the tear gas and fires started on the corners. All roads leading to Mosallah were witness to huge confrontations between people and the security forces.
As we arrived on Valiasr people were spilt on different sides of the sidewalk: one side would shout slogans, the anti-riot police would attack with their batons and paint-ball guns (to mark the protestors to pick them up later), then the other side of the side-walk would start the chanting, so the anti-riot police would be forced to come to this side. As they attacked one side of the sidewalk, the protestors on the opposite side would come out of the side streets they had just run into and gather, regroup, and chant again.
This continued for hours. When the anti-riot police disappeared for a bit, people lit candles and put them on the sidewalks, to commemorate the deaths of Neda, Sohrab, and the others. At one point we had managed to cover one section of the street in candles. As soon as the plainclothes militia saw the sidewalk lit in candles, they approached, stomped them out, and began hitting people. No one turned away.
They would attack us, we’d run into the side streets and reemerge less than one minute later. The most haunting scene was when protestors had gathered at the beginning of Takht-tavvos Street and were shouting “Death to the Dictator.” The anti-riot police gathered on their mothercycles (two per motorcycle, all in cameflouge uniform, with full riot gear) in the middle of the street and their leader began pumping them up (it looked like a huddle during a football game—it was disgusting).
He got them riled up, spun his baton in the air three times, and then they attacked (there were about 30 motorcycles, all in full gear). As they attacked the protestors in the street, some from the side began throwing stones at them, and all began cursing.
The anti-riot police would also drive up in cars and try to get people to move along and not congregate. People would walk slowly, then turn right back around. There was no more fear. They attacked, people retreated in the side-streets, then would come back out in less than one minute as soon as the motorcycles had gone off. There were so many protesters, and they were spread out all throughout Tehran (Valiasr Square, Fatemi Square, Yousefabad, Vanak Square, Mosallah, Sanati Square, Amirabad, Revolution Square, Tajrish Square….all the main streets and squares of Tehran were full of people and it seemed for the first time that the forces simply were not enough).
The security forces were using batons, chains, whips, tasers, paint-ball guns, and I saw handguns in the hands of three of them. There was a rumor that a few were shot at in Vanak Square.
Two people were picked up near us and people tried to chase after the security forces to get the young men back, but it was a futile chase. Until around 11pm the streets were full of people. At 10pm the shouts of Allah-o Akbar and Death to the Dictator were being screamed from the rooftops all over the city until 10.30pm.
Friends in Isfahan also reported that 4-5,000 people had gathered there and there were no security forces at all present This was the first such gathering on a large scale in Isfahan since the first week after the election. Reports also came of gatherings in the thousands in cities of Rasht, Shiraz, Mashad.
People of all ages, sexes, and socio-economic groups were out today. We ran into many at the cemetery who had driven in from the provinces to attend the 40th day ceremony. Religious men and women were numerous at the gravesite, as were non-religious men and women.
Children were out (at one point on the street back in Tehran I saw a group of two brothers and one sister, the youngest about 7 and the eldest 14, walking hand in hand down the street). Middle aged and older people would turn to us and say “we’re out on the streets for you guys, this is for your future, for your generation.”
One mother told a soldier who asked her to go back home “I’m not going anywhere. Don’t you know that we brought you guys into power by doing just this: by being out on the streets for nights on end. We brought you to where you are today, and we’re going to take you out by being on the streets. I’m not going anywhere.”
– Anonymous Observer in Iran

Comments

122 comments on “Dispatch from Iran: Some Police Soften on Neda’s Day

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    Reply

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  4. arthurdecco says:

    Deal with it? With what exactly?
    With your never ending bobbing and weaving? Or with your thin veneer of faux sensitivity that never quite succeeds in hiding your base, grossly insensitive nature? Or should I deal with the fact that you generate noise as efficiently as our resident sociopath, Nadine?
    I’m done dealing with “it” OR you.
    As I said, you disgust me.
    Rachael Corrie isn’t an “idea” to be dissected coolly and dispassionately analyzed after the fact. Rachael Corrie was an idealistic young American woman trying to make a difference in the world who was savagely murdered by a monster working for monsters supported by monsters the world over. And all you are capable of is turning her tragedy into even more discombobulated nattering designed to take our eyes away from that essential fact.
    You not only disgust me. You horrify me. You are eating the soul of America out from within.

    Reply

  5. questions says:

    Oh for heaven’s sake. I did not say “permissible.” I said that the cultural narrative is different in different circumstances. If you cannot handle general cultural readings and separate those readings from the views of the person who is pointing them out, then please just stop responding to what I write. You don’t “get” it.
    The messenger is not to blame for the message.
    I would not have run Corrie over. I think it was a hideous thing to do. People do hideous things. And depending on the circumstances of the victim we ascribe more and less blame.
    Had Corrie gotten out of a car with her philosophy professor (or music professor?) and had been run over, most likely the narrative would have been utterly different. THAT was my point.
    Because Corrie was protesting, and because a wide swath of the US does not really like protesting and has all sorts of unfortunate and ignorant associations with reasonable protest, many people dismiss protesters and their injuries.
    Note that I say “many people” and not “questions” here.
    Deal with it.

    Reply

  6. arthurdecco says:

    Questions said: “Rachel Corrie…was engaged in civil disobedience. For whatever reason (I can certainly think of a few), unless your a 9/11 first responder or a soldier, this behavior is less than smiled upon.”
    I still had a smidgen of respect for you before I read this. I still thought there was a core of decency in you.
    I thought wrong.
    Where I come from it isn’t permissible to trap a protester’s legs under the crushing weight of earth pushed there by a bulldozer blade, and then, while looking her straight in the eye…drive your bulldozer right over top of her.
    And then Stop, idling; spewing dirty black diesel smoke…
    and then…BACK UP OVER HER AGAIN!
    Did you know that Rachael lived for another 11 hours?
    She was 4 inches thick.
    Imagine the horror.
    Imagine the agony.
    Questions, you disgust me.

    Reply

  7. Outraged American says:

    David, I spent two years teaching in the slums of Phoenix and I
    agree with you about potential in all people. One class I taught
    of fifth graders, most of whose native language wasn’t English,
    got an almost perfect score on an English spelling test, because I
    took the time with each of them to encourage them to succeed.
    I also think that at some point you have to be responsible for
    yourself and your children. Daniel Patrick Monynihan IIRC wrote
    or said something about how the Welfare act before Congress at
    the time would destroy families, because it would financially
    encourage fathers to leave their families.
    Now we have generations of kids without “nuclear” or rather
    “noo-klear” families. No matter how much education we throw
    at them they will never have supportive parents who want the
    best for them.
    And I don’t know if anyone bothered to read the article from
    NEW YORK MAGAZINE (i.e., I didn’t make it up) but it points to
    real science that Ashkenazi Jews are indeed smarter than
    average.
    What’s wrong with that? What’s your doctor’s name BTW ;-)?
    And I’m actually from India, and a mutt (Indian, English, Irish,
    Scots, Burmese, Portuguese), so that argument goes nowhere
    with me. Except that Americans of Asian descent are very
    successful because their parents push them so hard. Again,
    statistics.

    Reply

  8. PissedOffAmerican says:

    Gads, the next thing we know we’ll be gettin’ into penis size and natural born rythym.
    I really don’t buy into this idea of genetic predisposition. Perhaps, in man’s earlier evolutionary development, it may have been true. But it just seems to me that the gene pool has become so intermixed that such genetic stereotyping is nigh on impossible. And certainly, advancing the idea serves no useful purpose except to foster rationales that justify racism.
    However, if there is any modicum of truth to Jews having “superior intelligence”, I must say that they aren’t using their brains in the Middle East. And Nadine musta got her genes mixed up with a sea slug.

    Reply

  9. David says:

    All of the Jews I have ever interacted with have been intelligent, often quite intelligent, but that is so anecdotal as to be useless. I do imagine it is possible to use various standard measures of intelligence to see what groups are currently performing best and what groups worst taken as a whole.
    The vast majority of Blacks I knew as a child were terribly undereducated. I had know way to know how intelligent they were or weren’t.
    As a community college composition instructor who taught remedial composition early on, I had a Black student from rural Sumter County who appeared to be borderline illiterate. I suspect he had come through the public schools of Sumter County with no expectations that he had any academic ability.
    We had a locally developed program of remedial coursework for institutional credit only in which we provided materials, opportunity, and as much guidance as the student was interested in. To move on to regular freshman composition, the student had to write an essay which could be expected to earn at least a C- in a for-credit freshman composition class (I also taught sections of those classes).
    These classes were more successful than traditional college remedial composition classes, but we were ultimately prohibited from requiring classes that did not award college degree credits. Somebody somewhere thought it was unreasonable.
    Back to my student, the Black lad from rural Sumter County. He utitilized the materials, sought guidance, and worked his ass off. It took one full semester and half of the next to get to the threshhold (they could keep taking the 098-099 sequence until they were successful or chose not to continue college – I lost very few, and some took 3 semesters, but they could write passing essays when they were allowed to move on). This Black who came in as an “ignorant Black” wound up graduating with honors and eventually earned a law degree.
    Point: Who the hell knows what potential lurks in what minds until we give that potential an opportunity in which it can express itself? Any apparent racial differential in intelligence will always prove, I suspect, to be a function of a difference in cultural setting and other environmental factors. The genetic differences occur within all races, not between races, and the more I learn, the less it seems pure genetics and the more it seems the whole complex of factors in which a person is conceived and into which a person is born and then nurtured – or not.
    I have seen culturally privileged children struggle. I have seen children from poverty achieve. And as far as the great minds are concerned, they come from everywhere, and for all manner of reasons.
    Paul,
    The Liberals. Everybody knows it’s the Liberals, who are some kind of subspecies of the human race, the dumbest of that subspecies being the secular humanists, who possess no divine knowledge and evidence no capacity for same.

    Reply

  10. Paul Norheim says:

    Who were the dumbest people according to these studies? The
    Negroes? The Indians?

    Reply

  11. Outraged American says:

    The “pro-Israel” posters on here really must work for Hamas.
    I think the way I do because I was trained as a scientist and then
    went out into the real world. I’m always ready to change when
    confronted by facts.
    The fact that Hollywood is run by Jews is no secret, and I lived it.
    It’s nothing to be ashamed of, it’s just a fact. IMO Ashkenazi
    Jews are the most intelligent people on Earth, and there have
    been studies done to prove it.
    Here’s an article from New York Magazine about it:
    Are Jews Smarter?
    Did Jewish intelligence evolve in tandem with Jewish diseases as
    a result of discrimination in the ghettos of medieval Europe?
    That’s the premise of a controversial new study that has some
    preening and others plotzing. What genetic science can tell us—
    and what it can’t.
    http://tinyurl.com/muqjrh
    So many Jews use their superior intelligence for the greater
    good, but the Zionists are ruining it for all Jews.

    Reply

  12. ... says:

    “Therefore I, a 95 year old Sabra (native born Israeli Jew), who has plowed its fields, planted trees, built a house and fathered sons, grandsons and great-grandsons, and also shed his blood in the battle for the founding of the State of Israel,
    “Declare herewith that I renounce my belief in the Zionism which has failed, that I shall not be loyal to the Jewish fascist state and its mad visions, that I shall not sing anymore its nationalist anthem, that I shall stand at attention only on the days of mourning for those fallen on both sides in the wars, and that I look with a broken heart at an Israel that is committing suicide and at the three generations of offspring that I have bred and raised in it…
    “Over all this there is waving the black flag of the frightening contempt for the life and blood of the Palestinians. Israel will never be forgiven for the terrible toll of blood spilt, and especially the blood of children, in hair-raising quantities.”
    http://mondoweiss.net/2009/08/avnery-says-that-israel-can-redeem-its-soul.html

    Reply

  13. ... says:

    Israel joined the West only in the late 1980s in boycotting South Africa before the collapse of apartheid.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel-South_Africa_relations
    Common aims
    Israel was openly critical of apartheid through the 1950s and 60s as it built alliances with post-colonial African governments. But most African states broke ties after the 1973 Yom Kippur war and the government in Jerusalem began to take a more benign view of the isolated regime in Pretoria. The relationship changed so profoundly that, in 1976, Israel invited the South African prime minister, John Vorster – a former Nazi sympathiser and a commander of the fascist Ossewabrandwag that sided with Hitler – to make a state visit.
    Leaving unmentioned Vorster’s wartime internment for supporting Germany, Israel’s prime minister, Yitzhak Rabin, hailed the South African premier as a force for freedom and made no mention of Vorster’s past as he toured the Jerusalem memorial to the six million Jews murdered by the Nazis. At a state banquet, Rabin toasted “the ideals shared by Israel and South Africa: the hopes for justice and peaceful coexistence”. Both countries, he said, faced “foreign-inspired instability and recklessness”.
    Vorster, whose army was then overrunning Angola, told his hosts that South Africa and Israel were victims of the enemies of western civilisation. A few months later, the South African government’s yearbook characterized the two countries as confronting a single problem: “Israel and South Africa have one thing above all else in common: they are both situated in a predominantly hostile world inhabited by dark peoples.”
    Vorster’s visit laid the ground for a collaboration that transformed the Israel-South Africa axis into a leading weapons developer and a force in the international arms trade. Liel, who headed the Israeli foreign ministry’s South Africa desk in the 80s, says that the Israeli security establishment came to believe that the Jewish state may not have survived without the relationship with the Afrikaners.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/feb/07/southafrica.israel

    Reply

  14. questions says:

    I cannot quite believe I’m reading this. The number of “villainized” Hollywood ethnicities is far broader than your very selective list. But this is precisely what is meant by “the letter always reaches its destination.” You will always find evidence for your belief because your belief shapes what you see. Anything that contradicts your beliefs simply goes unseen, and so your belief is never contradicted. That’s how the birthers work and the conspiracy theorists. They simply don’t see beyond themselves.
    I could list the things I’ve done, but it’s immaterial here. The fact is that you have selected what you’ll respond to, you have selected what you see, you have selected the forces you believe to be at work in the world, and once you have made your selections, why, that’s what you see. Amazing how this works.
    Seriously, I recommend you read up on the “selection bias” — likely there’s a Wiki page on it, and if not, try going through Nassim Nicholas Taleb’s “Black Swan”. It might help you understand why you think what you do.

    Reply

  15. Outraged American says:

    I worked in the entertainment industry, i.e., Hollywood, for 15
    years. It, to a huge extent, helps shapes the world’s perception.
    Consistently, Arabs are the villains. Before them, the Germans.
    Golly gee willikers- why would those two ethnicities be singled
    out?
    I can kind of understand the Germans being the villains after WW
    II, but Hogan’s Heroes was made decades after WW II.
    Guess who controls Hollywood? Statistically. Pick-up a copy of
    the Creative Directory, the bible of the entertainment industry,
    and find out for yourself. Or just read the credits on movies and
    TV shows.
    I have a ton of personal anecdotes about this, Questions, if you
    have the time.
    I’ve also worked in mainstream print journalism, as well as
    independent TV news. The former will not touch the true
    situation in the Middle East with any kind of accuracy, the latter
    is all over it.
    I have interviewed people in Gaza, during the latest Israeli
    attack, as UsRael helicopter gunships surrounded their homes.
    Ditto for Lebanon in 2006.
    I’ve interviewed so many people on the power of AIPAC and the
    Israel lobbies influence on US foreign policy, I can’t begin to
    count them. Everyone from experts on Christian Zionists to
    Grant Smith, who wrote a book on AIPAC.
    And I’ve interviewed countless people on the topic of Iran,
    including some of Steve’s guest posters.
    And I’ve interviewed returning US troops, many of whose mind
    and bodies are broken.
    I do simplify things when I’m posting here, because it’s just an
    outlet. But I also do know what I’m talking about.

    Reply

  16. questions says:

    … writes,
    “apartheid didn’t work in south africa in spite of israel being the only country to support their system”
    Ummm,
    As I recall, and maybe I’m wrong, but, umm, didn’t the US, umm, support S. Africa, and ahh, label the ANC as a “terrorist organization,” and ohh, refuse to impose sanctions and the like? I kind of feel like I have some vague memory of Reagan’s not faulting S. Africa and apartheid?
    But I could be wrong. It’s worth a fact check.

    Reply

  17. ... says:

    apartheid didn’t work in south africa in spite of israel being the only country to support their system… ethnic cleansing in israel so that israel is a jewish only homeland won’t work either… it will foster racism though something only the jewish culture seem to have a special name for to leverage their agenda only – antisemitism..

    Reply

  18. questions says:

    OA,
    Wrong direction for the analogy. The real question is what “ethnic cleansing” has to do with the slow but sure apartment building by apartment building, block by block squeeze in Jerusalem. Cossacks rampaged through eastern Europe and kicked people out with no warning. I don’t think that is quite analogous to what is happening in Jerusalem and so I don’t think the term “ethnic cleansing” accurately characterizes what’s happening.
    Hope this clarifies….

    Reply

  19. ... says:

    questions – the forced move of these people is based on ethnicity.. i feel the term ethnic cleansing is appropriate.. as for my initial point of ‘all we get are pics of neda’ – the thread we are posting under has as its pic, a pic of neda.. i think it’s a valid comment for this thread.. steve has done at least 3 posts with either this pic, or a video which includes this pic.. lets agree to disagree.. thanks for your comments..

    Reply

  20. Outraged American says:

    What do Cossacks have to do with Palestinians?

    Reply

  21. questions says:

    APOLOGIES TO MR. MONDO –he appears not to have brought up the phrase “ethnic cleansing. It would appear to be …’s very own addition to the vocabulary. Should have clicked before I wrote.
    And Mr. Mondo did bring up real estate agents.

    Reply

  22. questions says:

    My point remains. Your basic issue is that a terrible thing is happening and “all we get” is a story about a different terrible thing that you think is less important. The lack of attention to your preferred terrible thing you find to be immoral. And if “all we get” has any meaning, it contradicts your point anyway, because YOU have clearly GOTTEN something besides all Neda all the time.
    In fact, there are news stories about evictions of Palestinians, otherwise no one would know about them.
    Mr. Mondo has a preference for the sensational, so he uses “ethnic cleansing” to call to the minds of his readers thousands of brutal slayings, Cossacks riding through town and telling everyone to be out by sunset, knifings, shootings by the hundreds, death EVERYwhere, people fleeing in massed columns to neighboring countries, leaving all of their worldly possessions behind, burying their children and elderly on the pathway out as they drop dead of exhaustion. Some lucky souls have cars, many flee on foot. The soldiers chasing them are only a few minutes behind.
    My sense of the population pressure on Palestinians is a little different. Still insidious, nasty, unacceptable, worthy of condemnation and the like, but… a little more like the American practice of “blockbusting” where realtors push people out a block at a time through racial panic, occasional fires, thugs hanging out. Horrible for the block’s current residents, tragic for community stability, unfair to those who feel the need to sell far short of what the property is worth, bad all around. Think of the nutwing religious types as thugs and gangbangers, think of the government as the realtors’ personal assistant, and there you have the population push.
    This push is awful, unfair, unjust, racist and the like, but I really hesitate to use inflammatory language like “ethnic cleansing.” If we adopt that language, then every time a jr. college becomes a 4-year institution, raises test scores, no longer serves a largely minority, 1st in family to go to school population, it’s engaged in a kind of “ethnic cleansing.” And every time a neighborhood’s population shifts, there will be someone who brings up “ethnic cleansing.” This path to weakened phrases is a bad thing for the language, for communication, for our ability to speak.
    Let “ethnic cleansing” be a very broad based terror campaign against the entire ethnic population of an entire region. Let it be blazing guns and bombs and gangs. Let it be systematic, government supported. Let there be no options for families to stay because the terror is so intense. Let it keep rapes and murders as political tactics. Let there be no recourse whatsoever for the people.
    If this is what is happening in E. Jerusalem, then call it “ethnic cleansing,” and if not, coin a new phrase that shows the Israeli nastiness, but is more precisely faithful to what is actually happening.
    “Blockbusting” is probably too mild. “Ethnic cleansing” is probably too strong. “Pressure” is too vague. I’m sure there’s an apt description just waiting for a paper to be written around it.

    Reply

  23. ... says:

    questions, here’s the part of my quote from 149pm that you choose to respond to… “ethic cleansing in east jerusalem is happening, but all we get are pictures of neda…”
    your response
    Posted by questions, Aug 03 2009, 2:14PM – Link
    …,
    How did you find that story that wasn’t about Neda if ALL WE GET is stories about Neda? Enquiring minds want to know.<<
    as i said earlier (taking everything literally) suggests a lack of imagination on your part…
    Posted by questions, Aug 03 2009, 6:33PM – Link
    …,
    When I detect any sincerity at all, I respond with sincerity. <<
    do you think your 249pm was a sincere response to my general comment?? personally i found it to be the exact opposite…
    Posted by questions, Aug 03 2009, 9:40PM – Link
    I don’t believe I’ve ever attempted to justify evictions of Palestinians.
    Maybe you have a quote?<<
    show me where i ever said you did… from your first response to my 149pm post today i have got nothing but lack of sincerity or honesty from you… this last post of yours is no different… see if you can heed your own advice…

    Reply

  24. PissedOffAmerican says:

    The bible is too long.
    One sentence woulda sufficed to mentor the Christians;
    “Don’t be an asshole.”
    It’d work for Jews and Muslims too.
    And MEMRI might even get the translation right.
    I don’t know if it would work for Israelis though, because it seems they think everyone ELSE is the asshole.

    Reply

  25. questions says:

    I don’t believe I’ve ever attempted to justify evictions of Palestinians.
    Maybe you have a quote?

    Reply

  26. ... says:

    questions, i have never found long dissertations to be all that necessary especially when they’re always covering the same topic, so i tend to skip over them…i am sure you’ve said many things inside your long posts…
    i read today about those families being evicted in east jerusalem after having been their since 1956 and in west jerusalem prior to that, i thought you might be able to provide us with a rationale for it… i was sincere in that regard… but in many respects i find it a waste of time with both you and wigwag as you probably do with myself and some others here… the analogy of a broken record comes to mind… back to ignoring you questions…

    Reply

  27. questions says:

    …,
    When I detect any sincerity at all, I respond with sincerity. When you suggest that I’m in a tough position supporting Israel while they are going after a unified Jerusalem, it shows that you haven’t paid attention to the nuance.
    When you pay attention, I respond thoughtfully. When you snark, I snark back.

    Reply

  28. ... says:

    questions – thanks for the put downs.. i knew i could count on you…

    Reply

  29. questions says:

    Paul, as I (think) I said above, yes, the media are biased, BUT…. They are no more pro-Israel than they are pro-capitalism, pro-masculine power, pro-upper classes, pro-western, pro-bad guys get punished (but isn’t it fun sometimes to watch the bad guys have fun), pro….
    The point of the list…is that it makes no sense to single out pro-Israeli bias without looking first at all bias, the impossibility of real objectivity/lack of bias (EVERY editor, writer, reader, advertiser comes from somewhere and wants something, and so is biased from the outset).
    In fact, as usual, I would wonder just what “bias” is and just where it is. Such an investigation might shed some light on the many slants the news is given.
    Is bias in: the writers, the readers, the assumptions the writers make about the readers, the editors, the assumptions the writers make about the editors, the advertisers, the assumptions the editors make about the advertisers, the stores and delivery agents, the older readers, the younger readers, competition with the web and TV…. What exactly is this bias and what causes it?
    Perhaps if we start to see how choices of story, access to information, attempts to relate stories to readers, basic cultural assumptions and understandings of writers, availability of services for significant travel, safety of reporters, “hooks” into various stories, ways that some narratives already fit with popular perceptions (its own field of study) such that the writer doesn’t have to do a 10 page spread explaining the backstory…..
    I’m not over-complexifying; I’m showing that words like “bias” and “pro-Israeli” get tossed around with little consideration, and I think the consideration is really important. It’s so easy to fall into easy thinking about conspiracies and hidden meanings and birtherism and the like because people don’t really think through what they’re talking about.
    Are there many seemingly “pro-Israel” pieces in the news? Well, yes. But there are also many I’ve read that are critical of the Israelis, supportive of the general cause of Palestinian independence and flourishing. Some papers run endlessly with stories (WaPo on McCain’s affair (or not) with that lobbyist who looks strikingly like Cindy). But it didn’t really travel very far and it got dropped pretty quickly. Evidence of anti-McCainism in the WaPo and nowhere else, or just a story that didn’t resonate?
    Perhaps it’s all my fault. I’ve been reading Chomsky and Said and Z-Magazine and bunches of other thoughtful people for years, and I gave up cable and radio news (aside from a rare listen in the car) years ago as well.
    What makes news is far more than a uni-directional command structure. There are multiple points of pressure, and multiple possible responses.
    So, no, I’m not going to give in on POA’s particular version of “bias” because I think it’s right up there with the whole suppression of websites and google searches. It just isn’t quite the right explanatory mechanism. I prefer accurate subtlety to impassioned rants, even when accuracy is complicated and makes action harder to figure out. I don’t ask for easy clarity, clear good guys and bad guys. I’m not into the storybook reading of the world. Rube Goldberg is far more fun.
    And speaking of lack of subtlety, …, you found out about non-Neda stories via the media! AMAZING how the media can be the source of what the media cannot be the source of.
    And as for my support of Israel, try reading my posts and thinking. You might understand something.

    Reply

  30. ... says:

    hey questions, it must be tough supporting israel when they are busy ethnically cleansing east jerusalem at the moment… care to comment on those who have been evicted from their home so that some ”jewish” people can take over their homes??? i feel like banging my head against the wall with you for a brief moment…

    Reply

  31. ... says:

    questions… use your imagination…
    the bible is mostly used by those who would like to clobber others over the head.. in that respect i am not a fan of the bible… however there is much wisdom in it and the other ‘bibles’ of the world, of that theirs no doubt in my mind… try telling that to a funny mentalist and they will go funny on ya…

    Reply

  32. Outraged American says:

    One state solution. Call it by whatever name the majority of the
    populace decides. Take away all the US funds and the nukes and
    let them fight it out by themselves. Or give everyone 90 days to
    get out and blow the whole damn place up.
    Israel causes way more problems then it’s worth. Especially
    Jerusalem.
    God, an adult’s imaginary friend, has caused more problems than
    anything.

    Reply

  33. Paul Norheim says:

    “I do not want to see them or anyone else die for this mumbo-
    jumbo Bible crap.” (OA)
    Highly understandable. But if your position, that Israel should not
    exist as a state, succeeds, you`ll se some real mumbo-jumbo
    Bible crap translated into Realpolitik – way beyond what we see
    today. I have some close friends who agree with you, but I believe
    that your position is totally unrealistic. And by correcting
    injustice, you would also create more injustice.

    Reply

  34. Paul Norheim says:

    “The charges of “Israeli agent” don’t make any sense at all when
    directed at me, and never have.”
    And I believe that I have protested against these charges all the
    time at TWN.
    However, I often think that a combination of a vague (and
    understandable) sympathy for Israel, combined with an
    understandable allergy against anti-Zionist conspiracies (where
    Zionism is the root cause of everything that is wrong in the
    Universe), as well as your clashes with POA, have led you to
    question the obvious on several occasions, to create strawmen,
    and to often misinterpret the actual positions of your
    opponents.
    “And as for media coverage bias re Israel, I don’t think it’s any
    more biased towards Israel than it is towards any other
    generally accepted position.”
    I don`t know what you`re referring to with your formulation:
    “generally accepted positions.” To me, this vague statement is
    just another example of your blindness to certain facts – in this
    case that US media is biased.
    You may mention a dozen examples of “generally accepted
    position” in later comments, but it will not add or take away
    anything from the fact that US media have been biased re
    Israel/Palestine for decades.
    Again you`re arguing against the obvious.
    I can see clearly, here in Norway, that our media recently (the
    last 15-20 years) have become more or less pro Palestinian. But
    you seem to be blind to the obvious fact that US media are, and
    have been pro Israel for decades.

    Reply

  35. Outraged American says:

    I’ve read the Bible from end to end, a few times over, and went to a
    convent school. I think that Christ, if he actually existed, was a
    great philosopher and I live by his teachings. I don’t mouth them, I
    live them.
    One state solution.
    You live in Norway: your life will not be directly affected as much
    as mine if UsRael attacks Iran. I have two kids in my family, who I
    have taken care of since birth, on the verge of draft age. I do not
    want to see them or anyone else die for this mumbo-jumbo Bible
    crap.

    Reply

  36. questions says:

    …,
    How did you find that story that wasn’t about Neda if ALL WE GET is stories about Neda? Enquiring minds want to know.

    Reply

  37. questions says:

    Paul,
    I have never denied Israel’s condition as a disaster of a nation. Really. It’s a pathological society. So you shouldn’t be surprised that I said that. I’ve said it plenty of times before, going back to early on when I started posting here.
    I keep coming back to the basic point that where I differ from many here is what I would then do about the pathology. POA seems to want instant defunding. I don’t. But we’ve been over this ground before.
    Somehow, I’ve been misunderstood in ways I don’t quite understand. The charges of “Israeli agent” don’t make any sense at all when directed at me, and never have. They lived in the fevered imagination of a few posters and they are repeated often enough to create a, umm, fog, of misunderstanding of my position on Israel.
    For the nth time, I think the lobby stuff is way way way overexaggerated. I think the control of the media is way way way overexaggerated. I think defunding is destabilizing and so too risky. I think that Israel and Palestine need to find an internally legitimate new equilibrium because anything imposed from the outside will not be stable. I think the IR equivalent of therapy might be good. I think I’d like less violent and bloody death in the world…. All put together, clearly my sense of the world pegs me as Mossad and hasbara simultaneously.
    I think Israel and Palestine are locked in some vicious game theoretic situation that probably has a name and has been written about extensively. Neither trusts the other, so neither cooperates with the other, each betrays the other, and so their mutual payoff is reduced significantly and yet neither can escape the situation without resorting to insanity. (I think I’ve posted this one before, too.) I don’t think it’s a prisoners’ dilemma because they can communicate with one another, but they can’t trust the substance of the communication. So maybe it’s a subtle variation on the prisoners’ dilemma.
    And as for media coverage bias re Israel, I don’t think it’s any more biased towards Israel than it is towards any other generally accepted position. And I really don’t think the source of the bias is THELOBBY. Rather, the source of the bias is the usual stuff — writers and editors, readers and advertisers, basic demographics, friction and smoothness, and the like. It’s not an organized conspiracy to deny us the truth.

    Reply

  38. Paul Norheim says:

    “I personally am all for Israel not existing at all, but then I don’t
    think that the Bible is a legal document. I think that it was
    written by a bunch of bloodthirsty nutters.” (Outraged American)
    OA: if you seriously believe that the whole Bible is written by
    nutters, you either haven`t read it – or happen to be a nutter
    yourself!
    (I`m not talking about the “legal” stuff here…)
    The position of “Israel not existing at all” is absurd at this point.
    It would create new problems, both in the region and beyond -
    probably much larger problems than what we`ve seen until now.
    It`s the least “rational” position I could possibly think of at the
    moment.

    Reply

  39. ... says:

    ‘I am homeless’ ‘This is a Jewish country’ (voices from the evictions in E. Jerusalem)
    another rachel corrie moment… ethic cleansing in east jerusalem is happening, but all we get are pictures of neda…
    http://mondoweiss.net/2009/08/i-am-homeless-this-is-a-jewish-country-voices-from-the-evictions-in-e-jerusalem.html/comment-page-1#comment-103753

    Reply

  40. Paul Norheim says:

    “Anyone that fails to admit to the overt pro-Israel bias, exhibited
    daily on our media, is a liar. Or, if they haven’t noticed this bias,
    is an idiot.” (POA)
    Let me add some mild characterizations: Or they are themselves
    biased, uninformed, or naive.
    Seen from Europe, this is very obvious. America is, and has for
    decades been biased.

    Reply

  41. Paul Norheim says:

    Questions,
    regardless of the discussions on this thread, I want to say that I
    was pleased to see that the only tangible result of Israeli
    extremist Nadine`s propagandistic activities last week, was your
    recent admission (in another thread) that Israel is a “police state”.
    Your last comment above seems to confirm this position.

    Reply

  42. questions says:

    POA ‘n’ me!
    The issue is not the quality of the items produced in a search, nor was that my point in bringing up thge “google” search engine.
    ###I don’t have any way of knowing the significance of the number of hits. It’s the sort of thing one studies rather than simply basing assumptions on it. but maybe that’s just my thing and I should start grooving on the unfounded assumption. Hmm, maybe Obama wasn’t born in Hawaii after all!
    Since the Anderson incident, which I have taken an interest in, I have used the EXACT same manner to keep abreast of any developments on this story. With the google engine, that entailed doing the EXACT same search, periodically, using the EXACT same keywords, in the EXACT same manner. Despite questions’ attempts to slide around the grist of my assertions, I have noted a steadily decreasing amount of news items in regards to Anderson, a diminishment that seems to have accelerated in the last two weeks.
    ### Maybe there’s no news. Maybe Mossad just paid out big checks to stop the Podunk Daily Times from running a story.
    Note too, questions’ unrelenting effort to cast Anderson in the light that Paul describes above. Its interesting that questions’ comments on this issue are so interlaced with caveats, “yeah, its ugly, but….”.
    ### Why is it interesting? It’s closer to fact. What happened to Anderson is ugly. It’s emblematic of some of the worst things people do to one another. And Paul didn’t have my nuance quite right either. I’m not “casting” Anderson as anything. I’m trying to offer an explanation of why his story didn’t catch on without resorting to conspiracy theory. I prefer social explanations that fit with a lot of other observations.
    Why is it so important for questions to consistently seek to marginalize and understate the power of the Israeli lobbies, and consign any serious criticism of Israeli policy and crimes into the file marked “conspiracy theory”?
    #### Maybe because I think y’all exaggerate them wildly? Maybe because I do enough reading about Congress that this stuff doesn’t seem entirely accurate to me and accuracy matters. Hmm. Probably not. I’m just an Israeli agent.
    Straw arguments, misrepresenting and exaggerating poster’s opinions, blatant obsfucations….a long standing history of extreme intellectual contortions designed to debunk any assertions of excessive Israeli influence on American politics and foreign policy.
    ### None deliberate, but since I feel misread, exaggerated, misunderstood (must be a teenager to have these feelings all over again) I suppose you feel the same.
    Questions doth protest too much. The peripheral nuances of Israeli influence may be arguable.
    ###There is lots of room for trying to figure out not the “peripheral nuance” but all influence on Congress. This morning’s Nate Silver piece on the Senate, small states, and corporate PAC money is very interesting, but the comments highlight a lot of places where there might be some gaps. Congress is complicated.
    Disabling search engines ability to bring up certain topics in their entirety? Definitely questionable, and arguably approaching the realm of “conspiracy theory”.
    ### But this was YOUR thing for a couple of posts.
    But the more blatant examples of a heavily biased and selective reporting on events in the middle east by a corrupted and politically activist Fourth Estate? It is an undeniable fact.
    #### Not quite. It’s actually a complicated set of relationships that many a smart, educated, well-versed brain has devoted huge amounts of energy, ink and electrons to. Lots of murk, little clarity about what CAUSES the press to do what it does. There are corporate, and white, and urban, and moneyed slants to much news. Newspapers have “business” sections, not “poverty” or “blue collar” sections. But what CAUSES that? The readership? THELOBBY? The owners?
    Anyone that fails to admit to the overt pro-Israel bias, exhibited daily on our media, is a liar. Or, if they haven’t noticed this bias, is an idiot.
    #### I must be both!!!!!!!!!
    One wonders why questions consistently engages himself in such obsfucation.
    #### One wonders indeed. What could make some random poster in cyberspace disagree with POA? Only a conspiracist or a fool could do that!
    Is he just contrary, enjoying the process of intellectual confrontation?
    #### Spoiling for a good, aesthetic and immoral fight! Woohoo!
    Or, are his motives more aligned with a tasked agenda?
    ##### Ooooohh, that “tasked agenda” — scary dark deeds and thoughts in my soul. I’m a mossad (sung to the tune of “Soul Man”).
    But whatever the motive that drives his fog machine, he repeatedly offers arguments that cannot be fueled by conviction or honest analysis. He consistently asks us to ignore evidence that is irrevocable and glaring.
    #### Sure. No conviction, no honest analysis. Far better to believe that Israel turned off FreeGaza’s website and shut down worldwide access to stories about Tristan Anderson. Now that’s some analysis of the most convictioned and honest kind.
    ### So please ignore all evidence of my disagreeing with Israel’s policies, of my wishing the world were different, of my desire for Israel to be a less insane nation. And there you will have POA’s fevered imagining of my psyche.

    Reply

  43. Outraged American says:

    The rational thing would be to make Israel into one state and let
    them deal with their own problems without our money.
    I personally am all for Israel not existing at all, but then I don’t
    think that the Bible is a legal document. I think that it was
    written by a bunch of bloodthirsty nutters.
    There is a point in one’s life, whether it be personal or on the
    level of a country or religion, when one has to ask oneself, “Why
    do they hate me?”
    I think Israel needs to ask itself that question because it does
    appear by a Google search and many worldwide polls, that many
    people across the world, consider UsRael the greatest threat to
    world peace.

    Reply

  44. questions says:

    POA,
    As news gets older, the number of articles written about the issue decreases. Even “Michael Jackson” will eventually turn up fewer hits on a current news google search. (Note that you didn’t respond to the issue of CURRENT in the current news search.)
    If fewer people are CURRENTLY writing about Tristan Anderson, perhaps it’s because there haven’t been any changes since the last update, whenever that was. Of course the number of CURRENT news stories will decrease. Emphasis on NEWs.
    As to criticizing Israel — go for it. I have a lot of contempt for police actions that fire on unarmed demonstrators. I was no more pleased with raids in St. Paul on Dems, raids in Seattle on econ. protesters, or any other overdone police action than I am with the Israeli raids. And Israel, let’s face it, goes way further than it needs to, and way further than many police actions here, though let’s face it, enough bullet ridden bodies show up around the US that we know our police aren’t above using their weapons gratuitously on occasion.
    But when you add in the media conspiracies, the info/tech conspiracies (remember the one about the Free GAza website supposedly disabled by Mossad for a few days just to mess with your mind), the 9/11 conspiracies, the overemphasis on lobbying conspiracies instead of looking at the broad range on influences on media behavior, lobbying and congressional behavior, you muck up what otherwise is a decent and moral voice.
    Again, go ahead and criticize Israel. The nation deserves it. The policies deserve it. the people deserve it. The government there deserves it. They have installed a right wing kook, they have become paranoid, they have allowed a military-industrial complex to grow, they have been cruel, have committed war crimes, have tortured, have held political prisoners, have blockaded an entire small nation, have done many many things I find beyond the pale. And, strikingly, I find much of this to apply to the US as well.
    BUT, the LOBBY crap, the media blackout crap, the every congressman in Israel’s pocket crap…I can do without.
    And seriously, did you do a broader date search, or are you really just noting that there’s currently less coverage of Anderson? Do you really think stories have been removed? Is google/Brin part of THELOBBY now, too? Enquiring minds want to know.
    And do you have any sense of the rise and fall of google hits for any noteworthy story? How many current 9/11 stories are there? Katrina stories? Reports about Lincoln’s assassination? CURRENT news stories, that is. Some of these events are pretty major. But they might not be in current news stories in the most recent week.
    OA, Tristan Anderson was at a mildly, or more so depending on what you read, umm, active, weekly protest against the wall’s being built and taking a significant chunk of land away from the town. There may or may not have been stone throwing, there was a report of a demonstrator’s having the same kind of canister launcher that the police used on Anderson. At large group events (200-400 hundred people depending on the report), sometimes details get lost in fog. Everything may have been utterly peaceful, but police are police around the world.
    The police, in typical police fashion, shot at protesters. May or may not have “targeted” Anderson (whatever that means), certainly used significantly more “force” than what would be called for, but were indeed in something of a declared war zone. Do I fault the police? Of course. They overdid it as police often do. But the police, and the area in general are so unable to act rationally that endless tragedy will continue.
    No one trusts anyone else, power and land are under dispute, narratives collide with one another. They are all stuck playing out horror day after day. When people get stuck this way in school, they go to counselors and teachers. When they are stuck this way at work, they go to personnel or find a new job. When they are stuck this way in marriages, they get therapy or a divorce. Sadly, when they are stuck this way as a nation, they kill each other.
    Rather than going the “full Nazi,” OA, try to see how institutions and individuals shape their identities and courses of action, and maybe someone somewhere will have some actual insight instead of name-calling or inaccurate metaphor hurdling, or the like. Maybe.

    Reply

  45. Paul Norheim says:

    OK,
    for what it`s worth, I just did two Google News searches – and in
    both, I just typed “Tristan Anderson”.
    First I typed the name into my personal-criteria search (“Search
    Danish and English and French and German and Norwegian and
    Swedish pages”), and got 365.000 results.
    Then I typed the name into the “Search the web” option, and got
    1,6 million results.
    Afterwards I did a search on “Neda” out of curiosity, and got a bit
    more than 1 million on the personal criteria search, and 11,5 mill
    on the general web option.

    Reply

  46. Outraged American says:

    Did Tristan Anderson have a weapon? Was he threatening the
    Israelis in any way? Please. ZioNazis– I used to hate to use that
    word because of all it’s connotations, but now it really seems to be
    the case that the Israelis are turning into the same type of people
    who persecuted Jews.

    Reply

  47. PissedOffAmerican says:

    The issue is not the quality of the items produced in a search, nor was that my point in bringing up thge “google” search engine. Since the Anderson incident, which I have taken an interest in, I have used the EXACT same manner to keep abreast of any developments on this story. With the google engine, that entailed doing the EXACT same search, periodically, using the EXACT same keywords, in the EXACT same manner. Despite questions’ attempts to slide around the grist of my assertions, I have noted a steadily decreasing amount of news items in regards to Anderson, a diminishment that seems to have accelerated in the last two weeks.
    Note too, questions’ unrelenting effort to cast Anderson in the light that Paul describes above. Its interesting that questions’ comments on this issue are so interlaced with caveats, “yeah, its ugly, but….”.
    Why is it so important for questions to consistently seek to marginalize and understate the power of the Israeli lobbies, and consign any serious criticism of Israeli policy and crimes into the file marked “conspiracy theory”? Straw arguments, misrepresenting and exaggerating poster’s opinions, blatant obsfucations….a long standing history of extreme intellectual contortions designed to debunk any assertions of excessive Israeli influence on American politics and foreign policy.
    Questions doth protest too much. The peripheral nuances of Israeli influence may be arguable. Disabling search engines ability to bring up certain topics in their entirety? Definitely questionable, and arguably approaching the realm of “conspiracy theory”. But the more blatant examples of a heavily biased and selective reporting on events in the middle east by a corrupted and politically activist Fourth Estate? It is an undeniable fact. Anyone that fails to admit to the overt pro-Israel bias, exhibited daily on our media, is a liar. Or, if they haven’t noticed this bias, is an idiot.
    One wonders why questions consistently engages himself in such obsfucation. Is he just contrary, enjoying the process of intellectual confrontation? Or, are his motives more aligned with a tasked agenda? But whatever the motive that drives his fog machine, he repeatedly offers arguments that cannot be fueled by conviction or honest analysis. He consistently asks us to ignore evidence that is irrevocable and glaring.

    Reply

  48. questions says:

    Near as I can tell, the “NEWS SEARCH” works by date. You can search recent news and that’s the DEFAULT setting. So if you search without altering the default date settings, then of course older news stories will seem to have disappeared. They are too old to show up under the default date settings.
    Maybe you have changed your date settings and I’m just wrong and there’s a Google conspiracy (I only mildly have any trust in info tech corps and I certainly don’t want Google Books owning the bulk of the publication business in the world), but if you search only the last week’s news, then it’s not likely Tristan Anderson or Cynthia McKinney will show up in as many stories. Anderson was shot in March and it’s been several weeks now since McKinney’s arrest and release.

    Reply

  49. PissedOffAmerican says:

    Do a “news” search on google. Using the EXACT key words I have used since the incident occurred, the number of hits has exponentially dwindled.

    Reply

  50. questions says:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/14/world/middleeast/14westbank.html
    NY Times story — points out Anderson’s history of activism. Let’s face it, he wasn’t a naif.
    Ugly, indeed, but again, perhaps not quite what POA suggests.
    1,630,000 hits for Tristan Anderson in a generalized non-advanced old fashioned regular google search. Probably many aren’t this particular “Tristan Anderson” and many are probably not any kind of Tristan Anderson, but still there are likely a lot of references in cyber space about this.
    Stuff is not wiped away, disappeared, or vanished, unless it’s on your Kindle….

    Reply

  51. questions says:

    From Wiki, a quote from the girlfriend:
    ******
    American ISM volunteer critically injured by a tear gas canister fired by the Israeli Army’s upon observers after ISM demonstration. Fellow ISM volunteer and Tristan’s girlfriend Gabrielle Silverman (Israeli-American), who witnessed to his injury, argued:
    “We were at a demonstration against the wall, against the Israeli apartheid wall in the West Bank village of N’alin, which is about twenty-six kilometers west of Ramallah. I was very close to him when he was shot. I was only a few feet away. The demonstration had been going for several hours. It was wrapping up; it was almost over. Most people had already gone home. We were standing on some grass nearby a village mosque, and Tristan was taking pictures [when] he was shot in the head with the extended range tear gas canister”. [30]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Solidarity_Movement
    “Almost over” isn’t over. They were protesting, not having a date (or visiting his girlfriend), “extended range teargas canister” suggests significant distance rather than targeting, but then he did have a camera, so who knows.
    My original take on this was that there was room for ambiguity. My current take on this is that there is room for ambiguity. “Targeting” and Anderson’s not actually protesting but visiting his girlfriend don’t seem to hold up.
    But, again, POA and I seem to read different stuff, so maybe he knows more…..

    Reply

  52. questions says:

    Not quite “visiting his girlfriend” and this from Counterpunch/Anderson’s lawyer in another protest issue.
    It’s not a pretty story either way, but it may not be quite what POA insists….
    POA writes:
    “But Tristan’s story is no less compelling, as he was actually visiting his girlfriend, and was not there specifically to protest the separation fence.” (8:09 pm)
    “Anderson was on West Bank land, in a Palestinian town, protesting the Israeli separation fence. Whom does this obsfucating jackass questions think the protestors should have gotten a “permit” from?” (5:41 pm)
    And I will quickly note that I cam across some reference that the Ni’lin protests are an ongoing concern, and the Israeli police apparently “routinely” use experimental weapons there as it is a sore spot on the Israeli hide. Again, it’s ugly. But what else it is demands more analysis than is given here.
    Below from Anderson’s sometimes lawyer:
    ***************
    Last Friday, at a rally against the ongoing construction of Israel’s “separation wall,” Tristan was shot in the head by a high-velocity tear-gas cannister. He was taking photographs at a weekly demonstration in the West Bank village of Ni’lin, which stands to lose 25% of its remaining land to the wall. (The wall was ruled illegal by the International Court of Justice in 2004. Undertaken in the name of state security, it effects a further massive land theft by the Israeli government on behalf of Jewish settlers in the West Bank.)
    Tristan’s skull and face were shattered. Surgeons removed part of the frontal lobe of his brain, and he may lose an eye.
    Because the Israeli army does not allow Palestinian ambulances into Israel, Tristan’s ambulance was detained for 15 minutes at a military checkpoint, while he lay bleeding from his brain. He was ultimately transferred to an Israeli ambulance.
    Israeli government spokespersons said the soldiers followed proper policy, as the protest took place in a closed military zone. This stance is hardly surprising. Since July 2008, Israeli soldiers have killed four unarmed residents of Ni’lin, ages ranging from 10 to 22, at demonstrations against the wall. Three of these four Palestinian youths were shot in the head, and one in the back; three by live ammo, and one by “rubber-coated steel bullets” that lodged in his brain. (Details about each of those shootings is at http://palsolidarity.org/2009/03/5324.)
    The question is whether the Israeli soldiers were indiscriminately rocketing high-velocity cannisters straight at the crowd, or whether from 50 meters a soldier mistook Tristan for Palestinian, and aimed a tear gas cannon directly at his head. Tristan was standing still when he got hit.
    There will be a demonstration at the Israeli consulate in San Francisco this afternoon at 4pm.
    http://www.counterpunch.org/handleman03162009.html

    Reply

  53. questions says:

    Perhaps a conspiracy debunker???
    If you look to the left hand side of the screen in a google news search, you will see a list of date options. If you select “all dates” from the archives list, you will find 7950 listings for “Tristan Anderson” in quotation marks.
    “Cynthia McKinney” shows up 11,200 times with a broader time line.
    hikers arrested in Iran gets 153.
    McKinney arrested in Israel gets 218.
    Does this point alter anything?
    And when you get down to it, can you state some criterion for evaluating the meaning of the number of news stories for any event? Seriously, you give no boundaries, no definitions, no criteria, nothing to contextualize search responses. Is sheer number sufficient? Is there a quality rating? What sources does Google News cover? Just to know if you actually have “proof” of something takes a little more effort than you’ve put in.
    I highly recommend reading this kos diary debunking the latest birth certificate event. Apparently Orly Taitz has produced the GENUINE article. A little fact checking and context go a long way….
    http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/8/2/761144/-Debunking-the-unbearably-stupid
    Oh, and if “google news” is insufficient, do a generalized google search or nexus-lexus or yahoo or whatever. There are a lot of ways to find material. Go ask a librarian!

    Reply

  54. Outraged American says:

    Google’s co-founder, Sergey Brin is a Zionist. IIRC he attended
    whatever celebration Israel had lately.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Brin
    What’s scary is that his wife is trying to help develop systems to
    access health information i.e., to keep our medical records on easy
    access so that insurance companies can deny us insurance for pre-
    existing conditions.

    Reply

  55. JohnH says:

    Maybe Steve Clemons should ask Steve Schmidt to make a public statement about the purging of news items on Tristan Anderson. Steve Schmidt is Google’s CEO and on the Board at the New America Foundation.
    It seems the whole field of public relations has passed ‘questions’ by. All large organization employ lots of people to monitor and manage their image. None more so than the Israeli government, which begin its life arguing that ethnically cleansed Palestinians left of their own free will.
    For example, here’s a story about hasbara using Twitter to manufacture news about the Iranian election: http://www.chartingstocks.net/2009/06/proof-israeli-effort-to-destabilize-iran-via-twitter/
    [Read it quick before Eric Schmidt's people are pressured to take it down.]
    Combine well organized media campaigns with lazy, bottom line oriented media giants, and you end up with government and corporate PR machines feeding a constant stream of free “news” to the media. Big Media’s (BM) vision of paradise is being spoon fed “news” stories, which they only have to copy and publish –Neda, Iranian nukes, Palestinians’ bad behavior, the Russian threat, “undemocratic” Venezuela, etc, etc.
    If a PR campaign can’t produce a constant stream of “news,” then it’s deemed an unreliable source. But the PR outfits realize this and are constantly pushing stories. And BM doesn’t really want to alienate a “reliable” source, even if all it produces is propaganda 24/7, which it seems to be at this point.
    So it’s up to those of us who actually think about what’s happening to correct the record…

    Reply

  56. questions says:

    Paul, by “complicit” (and note I flagged the term) I meant that they put themselves quite deliberately where a reasonable person can expect to be harmed. It may be heroic, brave, courageous, amazing, something I personally would never do, and so on, but it is also voluntary. Its voluntary nature helps set the narrative.
    And when you volunteer for a risky venture, and you are harmed, the narrative that comes out is a little bit different from when you volunteer to do something fairly diffuse (save the entire Palestinian population, feed the hungry, end the war…), or do something fairly concrete that actually does save a life in a clearly connected. So you: run up the stairs at the World Trade Center on 9/11, you’re a major league hero because the disaster was acute, there were actual self-sacrificing life saving people; help land an about to crash plane or dive into rushing water to save someone. These people we tend to call obvious heroes because the connections between actions and lives saved is obvious.
    People who protest for civil rights are in a different classification. Their actions are diffuse, do not lead to instant gratification, are not easily traced to results, are often irritating to some while welcomed by others so it’s not clear whom to focus on.
    People who volunteer to be in risky places AND act in diffuse, hard to trace ways might be the least lucky of all in terms of getting sympathy, press time, and accolades.
    So where is Anderson in all of this? Well, diffuse, irritating to some and heroic to others and so a little ambiguous, volunteering to be in a risky situation, and in a place where there are well-defined (for now) winners and losers. I’d be shocked if Anderson got a whole lot of press play given all of this.
    I’m a whole lot less interested in the affronts to the dignity of Cynthia McKinney. She’s quite fine all in all. But I will read a few links in case I’m wrong.
    And by the way, I read several pieces on both Anderson and McKinney from multiple sources, but what I read isn’t likely what you read, so I don’t get quite the slant you get. (And yes, you, too, get a slant from your reading.)
    Thanks for the links, I will check them out as I have time.

    Reply

  57. Paul Norheim says:

    OT – but it looks like the Foreign Minister of Israel is in trouble:
    Israeli police today (Sunday) recommended an indictment of
    Lieberman for several corruption charges. There are plenty of
    articles and comments at Haaretz, but here`s an excerpt from
    Jerusalem Post:
    “Opposition MKs slammed Netanyahu for allowing Lieberman to
    remain foreign minister despite the police decision.
    Former deputy foreign minister Majallie Whbee of Kadima said
    that “every moment that Israel’s foreign minister remains a man
    who the police recommend indicting for serious corruption
    charges, grave damage is done to Israel’s image in the world.”
    A Netanyahu associate said that Lieberman was innocent until
    proven guilty and that prime ministers have also been under
    investigation and that it was “not a big deal.”
    Labor MK Yuli Tamir said it was “hypocritical and shameful” that
    Defense Minister Ehud Barak was keeping Labor in a coalition
    with Lieberman after presenting himself as a fighter against
    corruption.
    MK Afo Agbaria (Hadash) said it was a pity that the police did
    not recommend to also indict Lieberman for his “criminally
    racist and hateful views.””
    http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?
    cid=1249223905116&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

    Reply

  58. PissedOffAmerican says:

    Google…..
    Advanced news search about the Mckinney arrest…
    41 items.
    http://tinyurl.com/nb92gg
    Google…..
    Advanced news search about the hiker arrests…
    389 items.
    http://tinyurl.com/lmd6pm
    Eenie meenie miney mo……
    So, whats more newsworthy, three unknown American citizens inadvertantly wandering into Iran and being detained, or an ex-congresswoman being abducted on the high seas and being detained?
    Our State Department, and the media, seem to think it is the former.

    Reply

  59. PissedOffAmerican says:

    “When they see someone protesting in the streets of Tehran, they see heroes; when they see someone protesting in Israel or the Occupied Territories, they see civil disobedience and people who are complicit in dubious activities”
    Paul, I strongly disagree with your wording. The media actually presents these kinds of people such as Corrie or Tristan in the role you describe, (if they are mentioned at all). That does not mean they “see” them that way.
    And point of fact, the MSM has not portrayed Tristan Anderson in ANY light. They have simply ignored him. And I really don’t think that many people in the American public regard “these activists first and foremost as engaged in “civil disobedience”, as “complicit” (if even
    “mildly”) in illegal activities”. Why? Simply put, because the media blackout of Tristan’s situation has failed to inform them of his existence, much less his reason for being in Israel, or his activities there. The percentage of Americans that are even aware of Tristan Anderson is miniscule, through design. But you are correct in the respect that some media elements, albiet not mainstream, have made the effort to cast Anderson in an unfavorable light, and others implied he got what he deserved for meddling in the affairs of Israel.
    Questions places great propaganda value in the anecdotal aspects of Neda’s story, such as being with her proffessor, yadayada. But Tristan’s story is no less compelling, as he was actually visiting his girlfriend, and was not there specifically to protest the separation fence.
    Its interesting to me how very little questions knows about a story that he is willing to devote great gobs of horseshit to. One would think a responsible effort to research a story would be a prerequisite to attempting to spin it.
    Its interesting too the great volume of past material that a google search no longer brings up. Its as if it has dissappeared, at least to the google search engine.

    Reply

  60. Paul Norheim says:

    The main obstacle against the Corrie and Anderson narratives, is
    that Questions is not alone in regarding these activists first and
    foremost as engaged in “civil disobedience”, as “complicit” (if even
    “mildly”) in illegal activities. The US mainstream media and
    political establishment agree with him: When they see someone
    protesting in the streets of Tehran, they see heroes; when they
    see someone protesting in Israel or the Occupied Territories, they
    see civil disobedience and people who are complicit in dubious
    activities.

    Reply

  61. questions says:

    POA, thanks for the corrections. I was wrong about what happened to Anderson.
    If you have some citations, I’d be happy to read more than I have.
    Did I say there’s no bias in the media? Nope. BUT I think that bias doesn’t work quite the way you seem to think it does.
    Much of the US media are overly corporate in their outlook, overly willing to let the government have its uninvestigated say, overly willing to enjoy large salaries (those at the top of the food chain, that is). Many journalists are ill-educated, willing to settle for correlative “proof” rather than causal proof, missing philosophical and historical and sociological understanding, missing science, and so on. They have some tough deadline pressure that makes working on depth and detail harder, there’s a lot of scut work that is tedious, but needs to be done. More fact checking, questioning of received wisdom, broadening cultural contacts all would help as well.
    Simultaneously, though, I do not think that they have been taken prisoner by eminences grises.
    David, nice comment about the importance of Palestinian agency for a Palestinian solution.

    Reply

  62. PissedOffAmerican says:

    Three unknown American hikers, taken into custody because they wandered into Iran from Iraq, is apparently more “newsworthy” than an American ex-congresswoman abducted on the high seas and illegally detained.
    Naaaah, our media doesn’t exhibit political bias, does it?

    Reply

  63. PissedOffAmerican says:

    Anderson was on West Bank land, in a Palestinian town, protesting the Israeli separation fence. Whom does this obsfucating jackass questions think the protestors should have gotten a “permit” from?
    And note how he slimes in this assertion that the canister “bounced”, once again parroting the Israeli horseshit, yet offering the caveat “I was under the impression”. Yeah right.
    I note that three American “hikers” have been arrested by the Iranians for supposedly wandering into Iran from Iraq. Gee, guess what? The mainstream media is covering their arrest, and the State Department is issuing statements.
    I guess if you want to be ignored as an American taken into custody by a foreign nation you have to be kidnapped off the high seas in international waters. After all, its far more newsworthy to simply wander into Iran while hiking than it is to be illegally taken into custody on international waters, taken against your will into a country you had no intention of entering, then being illegally detained for three days.

    Reply

  64. David says:

    The dozer operator who squashed the life out of Rachel Corrie, with the apparent blessing of the Israeli government and the general indifference of the United States government, was on a par with my fellow Southerners who used to indulge in the brutal murder of Blacks, with the obvious blessing of “the appropriate authorities” (again, J. Edgar Hoover).
    But Rachel Corrie’s murder couldn’t galvanize an effective resistance to the Israeli occupation and brutalization of Palestinian land. The only thing that would work at this point, since there is no viable Palestinian government or occupation-resisting society, would be for all Palestinians in Palestine and Israel to simply stop everything and jam up everything.
    Actually, a couple of million or so Palestinians need to start walking, en masse, toward Israel, not stopping until they reach and engulf the Knesset. Anyone else ever experienced a very large number of people simply walking on the sidewalks and street in close proximity to each other and bound and determined simply to walk, rather like a very large organism? I experienced it in London after the celebrations on the eve of Charles and Di’s wedding. It was on the order of 2 or 3 hundred thousand people walking away from the celebration.
    Better yet, a hajj (sp?) to the Knesset involving maybe 5 million people. For it to work, the marchers would have to be utterly peaceful and utterly determined, of course. Even if a million were killed, that would be kind of the standard for how many civilians governments choose to murder for being in the way.
    If I were a marcher, I would be carrying a picture of the Israeli running over Rachel Corrie with the bulldozer. Oh, yeah, and the marchers should bring tents and food and refuse to leave. Couldn’t be a whole lot worse than what is slowly, systematically being done to Palestinians in the Occupied Territories. And any Muslims who were murdered while marching would be actual martyrs deserving of the rewards reserved for martyrs (does anyone know what the rewards are for women martyrs?)
    Meanwhile, back in the actual world, may Peace Now prevail, few as their numbers are in contemporary Israeli society.

    Reply

  65. Outraged American says:

    I would call what Rachel had “COURAGE,” and the home Rachel
    Corrie was standing in front of us was her friends’ home. IIRC
    she lived there with them in that home for a time.
    Rachel left behind amazing letters about her time in Gaza.
    Oh geez, I’ve talked on here about the time, right after Junior
    Bush’s non-election for the second time, tanks (or what looked
    like them) showed up in the middle of LA during an antiwar rally
    in Westwood (UCLA territory)
    I was out there with my cardboard peace sign, and no one at the
    protest had anything but cardboard peace signs, which are TRUE
    WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION, so should the soldiers in the
    tanks have opened fire on us for engaging in “civil disobedience?

    Because, after the tanks came around the block the second time,
    antiwar protestors stepped on the crosswalk in front of the
    tanks.
    How some of these pro-Israel posters on here can live with
    themselves is beyond me. But, the tide is turning. Even the
    yahoos out in Arizona are realizing that WAR IS NOT GOOD FOR
    THE HEALTH OF THE US. And some are even starting to connect
    the dots that our support of Israel = endless wars.

    Reply

  66. questions says:

    JohnH,
    You’re half right and half not right. Of course there is picking and choosing over which deaths matter and which don’t. Saudi Arabia’s behavior gets less attention than, say, the Taliban’s, and for a while in the 80s, the Taliban didn’t matter much either. Funny thing, though, is that people who pay any attention at all know a fair amount about Saudi Arabia AND the Taliban. It’s not a propaganda problem so much as it is an identification problem.
    We should feel the lead weight of every unjust death so heavily on our souls and bodies that we don’t allow ourselves a single bit of pleasure until all can feel pleasure. No more beer, trucks, jokes, trips, home remodelings, sending kids to school… until all injustice on the planet is stamped out. Try it as a strategy and see how it goes.
    Or, realize that yes, we do pick and choose, and the picking and choosing has much to do with how we identify ourselves. The suffering of cows and deer doesn’t bother POA, it makes me physically ill.
    POA, I haven’t dropped the “public empathy” thing. In fact, people’s empathy has limits. People get sick and tired of other people’s suffering, people benefit from other people’s suffering, and the suffering continues. The really is only so much space for someone else’s pain in any one person’s psyche. So when Neda comes around, her suffering works for a time, but I would guess that there’s a pretty short shelf life for Iran. In fact, Huff Po has dropped Iran and Nico Pitney from the front page and I hardly see updates anywhere anymore. 15 minutes of fame and all.

    Reply

  67. JohnH says:

    The attitude of the US media, the hired pens and talking heads, is that atrocities committed by the US its allies are not newsworthy, which suggests that they are viewed simply as business as usual.
    When it happens in an enemy country, however, it suddenly becomes newsworthy because it is so unusual, unexpected and therefore compelling. The thought that an enemy regime MIGHT POSSIBLY have contemplated killing somebody indicates that that regime is so barbaric and reprehensible that it deserves to be immediately overthrown and their country occupied. Then, once a civilized Western government, like the Shah or Likud takes power, the killings are no longer newsworthy, because they’re just civilized business as usual…

    Reply

  68. questions says:

    OA, I don’t know what else you call standing between a bulldozer and its target besides “civil disobedience.” And I didn’t say “friends.”
    JohnH, I don’t really think one needs to construct such elaborate theories. Seriously, add in “sabotage of the car so it would stop just in the right place. The music teacher/philosophy teacher had suggested Neda as the perfect target. He led her to the place where she would be summarily executed in order to further US/Israel’s desires for a destabilized Iran so that we could then go in and bomb the palce back to the stone age.” Seriously, do we need all of this? Any of it? The Hollywoodizaton of IR is a little scary. Events that, looking backward, seem oh so planned out can have been very random in their actual unfolding.
    POA, sorry to have a fact wrong. Anderson was leaving a protest. Is a protest “civil disobedience?” Probably depends on whether or not the protesters had a permit. But in the interest of clarity, I will no longer refer to Anderson’s act as one of civil disobedience. I will say that he was leaving a protest. I don’t think it changes the basic point of my argument which is that his being shot didn’t catch on because he was voluntarily participating in a public disagreement with a government and that very act of voluntarism is enough to make the narrative shift from one of accidental tragedy to one of mildly complicit (for lack of a better word) tragedy.
    When you put yourself where there’s a chance of harm, and then you get harmed, many people aren’t shocked into intense emotion. (And could there be a protest of Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians that isn’t at least a little risky?) Anderson’s being shot lacked a kind of utterly random “there but the grace of God…” hook that allows people to identify. We’ve ALL gotten out of the car to see something (Neda). We haven’t ALL gone to protest Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians (Anderson).
    Somehow my pointing out this seemingly reasonable interpretation is being confused with my actual views — yet again. I think it’s horrible that Anderson is in the condition he’s in. I think Israeli soldiers are off the deep end. But my thinking these things doesn’t make it impossible for me to see dissimilarities between Neda and Anderson.
    And as for a definition of “civil disobedience,” the usual line is: a willful disobeying of a law to show contempt for the law while accepting the punishment that the law chooses to mete out all in the hopes of altering the law. If protesting is illegal, then the protesters are engaging in civil disobedience. If it’s a legal but frowned on action, I’d guess one could create another category we could call “civil action.” Then the point of the act would be to show disdain for a social assumption by challenging that assumption and being willing to accept the ostracism, violence, or the like meted out by social forces. Was Anderson in a safe and legal place, a borderline space, or a clearly dangerous space?
    So this disingenuous slimeball (didn’t Steve ask for civility? Whatevah.) is asking for details about Anderson and will revisit the term “civil disobedience.” Such is the way of all slimeballs. I kind of doubt that there was “targeting” but maybe I’m wrong. I was under the impression that the canister bounced, but maybe it was aimed directly at his head. Even if it was a deliberate assassination, the fact is that Anderson was willingly there, and Neda was not. This asymmetry matters in narrative construction.
    POA, you’d be more effective if you could muster even 1% of the feeling you show Anderson for Neda. Really. Even 1% would help. Otherwise you just look like you, too, are picking favorites.
    But that’s just one slimeball’s opinion!
    And by the way, POA, you have for so long misinterpreted my points that I’m kind of used to it, but it still amazes me that you keep missing the boat. I’m not excusing, accepting the Israeli line, working for the Israeli government or any of the other stuff you send my way. I’m interested in cultural criticism, I’m interested in meta-level issues like why it is we get interested in things, as opposed to the things that are at issue. So the response to Neda and Anderson is, by itself, inherently interesting to me. I simply don’t buy the notion that there is some propaganda screen that keeps people from knowing/seeing/thinking. I don’t consume much in the way of mass media, so maybe my perspective is utterly distorted by not listening to O’Reilly or having cable or whatever. I get fed a lot less crap, and I therefore don’t really feel that I have been victimized by some huge propaganda machine. But then, you think I am part of that very propaganda machine I’m unaware of. Very odd, the whole thing.

    Reply

  69. JohnH says:

    Exactly. Rachel Corrie and Tristan Anderson were engaged in civil disobedience. So the spin says their deaths are not newsworthy, even though they were American citizens, their activities were non-violent, and their deaths were clearly carried out by people paid by a foreign government?
    But Neda is worthy of great coverage in the American press, even though she was on her way to engage in civil disobedience. According to the spin, her story was made all the more compelling by the facts that she was Iranian, not American, and that her assassins are completely unknown. Since when do random acts of violence against foreigners in their home countries attract such media attention? Answer–only when it happens during protests against regimes the US government doesn’t like.
    The clear difference between the death of Neda and the deaths of Andersen and Corrie is that some deaths are useful for propaganda purposes. Others, if publicized, would be embarrassing to powerful interests.

    Reply

  70. PissedOffAmerican says:

    BTW, a month or so back, if you were to do an advanced “News” google search on “Tristan Anderson”, you recieved a few hundred hits. Now, using the exact same search engine, using the exact same wording, you recieve 8 hits.
    Someone want to explain that to me? How is this possible? Those additional articles just evaporated into inner space?
    http://tinyurl.com/mqed3v
    Some very notable articles, from Palestinian and Israeli news sources, have been purged from google access.

    Reply

  71. PissedOffAmerican says:

    There are a number of occassions when this disingenuouis slimeball has made the accusation that Anderson was engaged in “civil disobedience”. Perhaps he will specifically describe that “civil disobedience” for us?
    Or not.

    Reply

  72. PissedOffAmerican says:

    “Is there necessarily any conspiracy mentality behind such reasoning?”
    The “conspiracy” thing is used consistently to consign unpopular political opinions to the looney bin. Questions uses it constantly. It is one of the tactics that he uses that I find so despicably disingenuous. There is no “false conspiracy” component to the very real media and political capitalization on Neda’s death. Nor is there a “false conspiracy” component to the silence surrounding Tristan Anderson’s fate. One could accept questions’ argument if the MSM media had reported on Tristan’s shooting when it occurred, then, through lack of public interest, the story simply died. But there is no denying that an American citizen being shot down in a foreign nation by troops of that nation is a newsworthy item. But the MSM did not even report on the original event. Couple that with the silence and inaction of our State Department, and it is obvious this story was purposelly kept from under wraps. Direct comment and action from the State Department may have attracted media attention, which is of course the reason our State Department refused to publically address this event.
    Fact is, Tristan was in very close proximity to the IDF jackboot that fired the tear gas canister, and the protest was OVER. Questions’ parroting of the Israeli excuse, that Tristan was engaged in “civil disobedience” is pure unmitigated horseshit, and questions knows it. Tristan was leaving the scene of a PEACEFUL protest that had already occurred, when he was apparently TARGETED by one of these fucking IDF racist jackboots. Thats not newsworthy? Horseshit.
    Fact is, we KNOW who shot Tristan Anderson. Thats why it is kept under wraps. The irony is that we have NO IDEA who shot Neda, yet the media and Washington have framed the event in such a manner that it is widely accepted that Iranian police forces shot her. Questions, in his typically slimey and disingenuous manner would have you ignore these facts.

    Reply

  73. Outraged American says:

    Rachel Corrie was engaged in “civil disobedience” by standing in
    front of a bulldozer about to destroy the house of her friends?
    What nonsense.
    The bulldozer ran over and backed up over Rachel Corrie. There
    are pictures. But the bigger question is why was Israel
    destroying the house?
    And the biggest question is why does Israel exist? There have
    been so many Holocausts in the last 100 years, and not every
    targeted group got their own country, then to make trouble for
    all and sundry.
    Israel, given her antagonism to her neighbors and her complete
    control of the craven sh*theads in the US Congress, is a
    problem. How does one solve a problem? Get rid of it.
    ONE STATE SOLUTION AND ALL AID CUT-OFF to Israel before
    she starts WW III.

    Reply

  74. JohnH says:

    There is a disturbing parallel here. During the 2002 coup against Chavez, several anti-government protesters got shot and killed–from behind the protesters line of march. Moreover, the protest march was still out of gunshot range of Chavez’ supporters, who were surrounding the presidential palace. Even before the deaths, coup leaders were announcing the deaths on their private TV stations. The conclusion? The coup leaders needed a few deaths to pin on Chavez. The American and Venezuelan private media seized on the opportunity to claim that Chavez was out of control, killing his own people, and therefore had to be removed.
    The parallel? Neda’s death remains unexplained. No murderer or motive has been identified. All that is known is that it was coincident with the aftermath of a protest march. And her death clearly served the interests of the anti-Iranian agenda. Was it deliberate? Who can say? But stranger things have happened. And though its cause remains murky, it has been seized upon as a “poster murder” by Iranian government thugs.

    Reply

  75. PissedOffAmerican says:

    From a Peace Now email………..
    LIVE Q+A OVER THE WEB – THIS WEEK
    Dont forget that on Tuesday August 4, 2009 at 14:00hrs Israel time (12:00noon GMT and 7:00am East Coast US time)
    Hagit Ofran, our Settlement Watch Director will be answering YOUR questions live over the internet – Send in your questions regarding settlements and the peace process – ask anything you’ve ever wanted to know!
    Send your questions to nurit@peacenow.org.il any time until 4/8/9 at 14:15hrs Israel time with your full name and country details.
    To listen in to the live session on Tuesday click here:
    http://www.peacenow.org.il/site/en/peace.asp?pi=182&docid=3637
    (The page will be activated on Tuesday, at 14:00).

    Reply

  76. PissedOffAmerican says:

    Oh, questions doesn’t deny the existence of propaganda. He just denies that it has anything to do with the power of the pro-Israel lobbies and activists that have such a stranglehold on Washington DC. In questions mind, yes, there is propaganda, but no, there isn’t anyone behind it. Now there’s a fancy bit of logic, eh?

    Reply

  77. JohnH says:

    Questions: yes, you can explain away a lot of things by just saying, “some things just happen to catch on for whatever reasons.”
    But don’t you think it’s in the interests of powerful people in Washington and their allies in the media to publicize certain things and ignore others? Otherwise, how do you explain
    - the almost total blackout of the deaths and repression in Honduras after the coup against the democratically elected president? In many ways this is a story with a strong parallel to the one in Iran. The distinction is that in one case, the protesters want democracy. In the other, they want their democracy back. The one gets hyped, the latter blacked out.
    - the widespread publicity of protests in Ukraine, China (Tiananmen), and Iran–all ruled by US rivals at the time–at the same time as there is a blackout on other, huge protests, such as those that took place after the disputed Mexican elections and those that are taking place in Thailand.
    - the blackout of views opposed to the Iraq War
    in the run-up to the invasion. Subsequently the reasons for the war were all found to be false, partly through the Herculean efforts of Joe Wilson, whose wife Valerie Plame, the CIA agent got outed by Cheney as payback and as intimidation against other potential whistle blowers. Once Bush’s rationales were all proven false, the media lost interest in determining why it was that America went to war. When Alan Greenspan revealed that it was about oil, it became news, but only because it was a novelty that someone would speak the truth, and because he had to admit that he thought everybody already knew. Then the Iraq-War-for-Oil story got buried again.
    - the blackout of anything having to do with America’s quest for oil in the world, despite the fact that such a quest made a lot of sense in vie of diminishing prospects for supply and rapidly rising oil and gas prices of the last decade. To read the press, you would come to the conclusion that it is only America’s rivals–Russia, China, Iran, Venezuela, etc.–that put oil into their strategic calculus. America’s ambitions are supposedly based only on noble principles, while our rivals pursue grubby, economic self interest.
    Yes, questions, you can go to any one story and imagine reasons why it may or may not have been of interest to the media. But when you see a pattern–constantly protecting America’s allies and casting them in a favorable light while putting rivals in an unfavorable one–then you realize that there is more than happenstance behind the news. In fact, if you really pay close attention, you can find lots of stories (like Saddam’s Niger uranium) that are clearly false and simply planted to demonize an enemy. It is called propaganda.

    Reply

  78. PissedOffAmerican says:

    What conspiracy theory? Only a blithering jackass would seek to cloud the reality of political manipulation of events to fit political agendas.
    If Questions thinks that Anderson’s shooting, under the same circumstances of protest, occurring in Iran, would not have been an immediate media extravagansa and political trifecta for the anti-Iran factions in our government and Israel, he’s living in a dream world.
    But at least he’s dropped this horseshit about public capacities for empathy.

    Reply

  79. questions says:

    JohnH,
    Rachel Corrie is the subject of a play, seemed to get some amount of press, and, like Tristan Anderson, was engaged in civil disobedience. For whatever reason (I can certainly think of a few), unless your a 9/11 first responder or a soldier, this behavior is less than smiled upon.
    Paul, yes, of course these people become symbols/metonyms or synecdoches (can’t recall the part/whole differences between these two). That’s the point at which the discussion starts here. The question is why do some people catch on and others don’t. Lots of Iranians have died, some have died on camera. I didn’t watch Neda’s death because I’m not really necrophiliac, but description I’ve read suggest the death was noble at some level.
    A single noble death carries with it profound explanatory power. My sense from Nico Pitney’s posts is that Neda’s death moved Iranians even as it was moving Americans. Her death has provided the mourning ceremonies that have allowed more open rebellion.
    So of course there’s a “using” of the death as a symbol. If Tristan Anderson were to catch on, his status would become symbolic as well. But what happened to Anderson, though deeply tragic, is more willing than what happened to Neda. There’s real power in getting out of a car with a philosophy teacher just to see what’s happening and ending up shot by evil police/fellow countrymen. A young and talented life cut down just as she’s learning philosophy (unless it was music.)
    News stories catch on when they fit into an already-constructed narrative. And Neda’s death certainly does that. The narrative around Anderson really doesn’t have quite the resonance despite its real tragedy.
    The point though isn’t to engage in “dueling tragedies.” That’s what I’m trying to avoid. All war deaths are tragic, all victims of police and soldier brutality deserve better than they get. Even Neda.
    We’re better off trying to do some cultural analysis that goes past I/P conspiracy theories that hold that the media have been captured by the I-side of the conspiracy. It really starts to seem a little birtherish. To me at any rate.
    But I realize that my disagreeing with the dominant interpretation on this website can only mean that I’m an Israeli agent whose job is to make it harder to take a principled stand that in fact, Anderson’s is the more tragic, and Neda’s the less, and the real difference is that the media are controlled by agents of Israel….. Oh, my aching obfuscated brain. How can anyone even believe what questions purports to believe…. How can there be any sense of morality in these trashy piles of electrons?

    Reply

  80. Dirk says:

    “Really? You know this how? Neda was killed. Thats all we know. We don’t who killed her. She could have been targeted, or it could have been a stray bullet. She may have been purposely martyred, or she may have been a victimn of chance. We simply have no way of knowing, do we? So all YOU are doing is spewing propaganda. True, or not?”
    Fair enough, I’m only fairly completely convinced, but not sure. I’m commenting on how her death is perceived by a lot of Iranians though, not how it is being portrayed/being used to influence Americans. I had similar feelings here when the Kent State massacres happened and I know many of my contemporaries were intensely galvanized at the time.
    To the extent that an event in Iran is being used by our media and government propagandists, which is what you are talking about, I have only incomplete knowledge since I get most of my news via foreign media over the net; I don’t own a TV and the SF Chronicle is a joke.
    I have noticed that KGO’s Israeli-firster hosts are consistently ignoring this story as a distraction to their desire to bomb Iran. Even NPR seems to dance around the looming necessity.

    Reply

  81. Paul Norheim says:

    Questions,
    Neda`s fate is transformed into a symbol, used both domestically
    (within the Iranian opposition) and abroad for certain political
    purposes. Do you deny this?
    Another example is the Cuban kid Elian, almost ten years ago.
    Also his fate was transformed into a symbol, used by different
    groups for certain political purposes – in that case opposite
    purposes. Do you deny this?
    Is there necessarily any conspiracy mentality behind such
    reasoning?

    Reply

  82. JohnH says:

    Questions, the story doesn’t get much more compelling than Rachel Corrie’s. Attractive, young, idealistic American woman gets bulldozed putting her life on the line, trying to protect the poor and downtrodden. But it never did generate any significant media coverage, particularly not the hype that Neda has generated.
    It didn’t fit the pro-Israel, anti-Palestinian narrative. And only those stories that make our our friends look good or demonize our enemies deserve media time and space.
    But in the case of Iran, the media’s handlers were practically begging for a Neda. The narrative of the “stolen” elections was incomplete without a senseless “poster death” that they could attribute to Ahmadinejad’s thugs, even though no one really know who killed her.

    Reply

  83. questions says:

    American citizens are shot by our own police pretty routinely, and there isn’t a whole lot of feeling for them all across the nation. The presses aren’t halted, and the world doesn’t intervene in every domestic police action.
    I don’t think we’re all pawns of the media game, but whatever.
    I think that in fact personal contact, eye contact, immediacy, familiarity, cuteness, walking with a philosophy teacher (unless the guy she was with was her music teacher — I saw both identifications) all make certain tragedies graspable, while distance, difference, disdain, unattractiveness, voluntarily being there instead of accidentally being there, and certain orders of magnitude can make other tragedies just about impossible to grasp.
    Anecdotes are more intense than are statistics, so Neda ranks higher than “the Palestinians.” Tristan Anderson was engaged in civil disobedience. You have to know what you risk when you engage in that, and so Anderson isn’t a poster child for Israeli soldiers’ willful violence anymore than any random African American shot by police ends up as a poster child around the country. Sometimes a shooting catches on, sometimes it doesn’t.
    Sorry, POA, I just don’t buy the conspiracy thinking just below the surface of your posts on Anderson.

    Reply

  84. PissedOffAmerican says:

    Tristan Anderson is still a vegetable, despite our State Department’s, and our media’s, willingness to ignore the manner in which he became one. Have you ever seen a picture of Tristan? Seen his name in a mainstream paper? Heard Maddow, Hannity, Olberman, Cooper, or Scarborough mention his name?
    Can you imagine if an American citizen was shot in the head in Iran while engaged in peaceful protest?
    How many wedding parties have we now “accidentally” targeted? Are we to suppose there were no attractive young women attending these events?
    Neda is “special” because our politicians, and our media, have made her special. Remove the marketing, and she is no more “special” than any one individual out of the hundreds of thousands that we have killed in Iraq, or than any Palestinian victim of Israel’s latest bloodletting in Gaza.

    Reply

  85. David says:

    My comment was in defense of seeing value in the reaction Neda’s murder is generating in Iranian society, just as the murders of three civil rights workers helped galvanize Americans against homicidal apartheid in the South (of course, it took the murder of a white northerner to get the North’s attention), and that we and Israel had better let Iran sort this out for themselves, just as we were allowed to sort out apartheid for ourselves.
    I also said that I thought compassion could be directed at an individual or a million Cambodians. I have done both all of my life. The more innocent deaths I know about, single or mass, the more intense is my opposition to any and all government inflicted death on the innocent.
    I concluded with a note that POA is absolutely correct about the very selective use of international news by the American media. Only Bill Moyers at PBS and the host of alternative independent investigative journalists can look back on the runup to the criminal invasion of Iraq with a sense of journalistic integrity. The major media were enablers of a major war crime.

    Reply

  86. David says:

    Captcha cost me my comment because I forgot to do Control C before hitting back to. My fault, but it was an involved response. I momentarily give up because of my own keyboard ineptitude.
    C’est la vie.

    Reply

  87. JohnH says:

    This is not some randomly blogged piece. It is part of a highly coordinated effort to demonize the Iranian regime. Yesterday they had a similar story on NPR, today on Rachel Maddow.
    Anybody remember how much media time and space was spent on Rachel Corrie, the young American women who got bulldozed by an Israeli bulldozer?
    http://www.rachelcorrie.org/
    At that point stories about the DELIBERATE, cold blooded, political assassination of an AMERICAN were conspicuous by their almost total absence.
    Moral of the story: you’re only supposed to care about the senseless killings that the American media’s handlers say that we’re supposed to care about, because spotlighting their deaths serves to advance their cause–Neda, Anne Frank, etc.

    Reply

  88. Dan Kervick says:

    I don’t think we have a duty to feel compassion for people we have never met or even seen. And I do think it is perfectly natural and appropriate to feel for the suffering of people we have encountered as individuals, if only remotely through video.
    But where my skepticism comes in is when deliberate attempts are made to draw out those feelings, to turn the suffering of one person into a synecdoche for the reality of a whole country. Iran in not Neda; Palestine is not Mohammed al-Durra; Russia isn’t a baby carriage on the Odessa Staircase.
    It’s not how we feel that is at issue; but how we form our judgments. We can’t feel pain for Iraqis we have never met. But we have the capacity for moral judgment and objectivity; and using the capacity we understand that the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent people is a very big deal, and more grave than the death of one woman. We might not have seen those Iraqis die in the way we saw Neda die, but if we use our imagination we can envisage what some of those deaths must have been like. Then we can repeat that imagined episode a hundred, a thousand, ten thousand and more times.

    Reply

  89. ... says:

    actually it is just a pic, but i recall a you tube video on her dying posted here at twn as well… that would be at minimum a 3 repeat of a neda pic or video here at twn…

    Reply

  90. ... says:

    here it is here on the you tube at twn from last june..
    http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/2009/06/foreign_embassi/

    Reply

  91. ... says:

    david if i am not mistaken this is the 2ND time steve has done a link with basically the same pic of neda… i agree with poa on this issue…

    Reply

  92. Outraged American says:

    Sibel Edmonds, the FBI translator still under a gag order, just said
    that Bin Laden was working for the US until 9/11:
    http://www.bradblog.com/?p=7332
    We’ve always lied about the civilian death toll in Afghanistan, Iraq
    and now Pakistan. We don’t “do” body counts.

    Reply

  93. JohnH says:

    Now Honduras has its own Neda–not the TWN or the media will ever allow it to be noticed. After all, the folks in the coup regime must be our friends…
    http://narcosphere.narconews.com/thefield/roger-abraham-vallejo-soriano-1971-2009

    Reply

  94. PissedOffAmerican says:

    This topic is made timely by the recent declaration that we are no longer officially tallying Afghani deaths.
    What, in effect does this mean? It means we have removed their names, and their faces.
    They have become, through design, politically invisible.
    And no amount of blather about the public’s “limited space for empathy” can mask the above described reality.

    Reply

  95. PissedOffAmerican says:

    Oh bullshit. It is all about where our attention is purposely drawn, through media and political manipulation. There is a reason that Neda photographs are recieving media attention, while pictures of incinerated Palestinian children, or dead Iraqi non-combatants are not. And it has nothing to do with the public’s “limited space for empathy”.
    Put a face and a name to that poor child whose photo I linked to, and give his tragic death the same media “marketing” that Neda’s has recieved, and the public would react with no less concern than it has for Neda’s death.
    The “losing argument” here is your obsfucating prattle, designed to mask the manipulation our politicians and our media engage in to divert our attention from one tragic arena that is less than flattering to Israel and the United States, and direct it to another tragic arena that it is politically expedient to expose.
    Neda is a pawn for the scumbags that use her so. Her death means NOTHING to them, except for its marketing value. Why do you support such despicable and selective capitalization on tragedy with your obsfucating pseudo-intellectual analysis?? Is there no issue immune from your convoluted prattle?

    Reply

  96. Outraged American says:

    Neda is being used by hidden forces to facilitate an attack or
    more sanctions on Iran. While I think that the Iranians’ domestic
    grief and anger is very real (if I were an Iranian woman I’d be at
    the front of the rallies NAKED in protest of the hijab, and people
    would go blind ;-) I have to question why Iranians are
    publicizing it IN ENGLISH and thus playing into the ZioNazis
    hands.
    Have they not seen what happened when UsRael brought
    “democracy” to Iraq? Or what happened to Gaza after the
    Palestinians voted DEMOCRATICALLY to elect Hamas? Or what
    we did to Iran with the Shah?
    The Iranians need to sort this out for themselves, and I wish
    them the very best of luck, because I would take an “acid facial”
    rather than live under a veil.
    And about empathy being about oneself — what is this theory? I
    really would like to hear more. Are you saying that it’s
    impossible to feel sorry for someone unless you can link it to
    personal experience?
    Well, I’ve never been in jail, at least not yet, though those FEMA
    camps are heating up for all of us Bill of Rights types, but have
    three dogs from the pound. One was about to be euthanized
    when I got her out. So does my empathy for her stem from my
    hatred of being caged and a lack of desire to be killed by the
    authorities?
    Is this why I have so much sympathy for the people of Gaza, the
    world’s largest and most frequently bombed prison camp?
    I’m really curious about this. Is this psycho-babble or have
    studies been done on it?

    Reply

  97. questions says:

    People have limited space for empathy and so we pick and choose for whom to feel it. It seems to me to be going the wrong direction to argue that we have a duty to feel more for non-Nedas than for Neda herself, given that we feel more empathy for young people who die, talented people who die, familiar people who die, people who die in plane crashes rather than car crashes and so on. We feel less for “junkies” and more for Hollywood suicides. This is not to argue the issue of moral obligation, but rather to describe what we do.
    Empathy is a odd creature with odd instigating forces. It’s likely more tied up with selfish concerns than you’d think. “Selfish”, here, in that empathy is more about my imagining how I’d feel if I were to go through that than it is about how the other actually feels. Neda’s being pretty, shot dead, on camera as she died, part of an exciting proto-revolution, hit a lot of people in the imagination.
    Condemning people for feeling empathy one place and not the other is a losing argument when it is based on a desire to have people feel empathy in the other place and not the one.
    If you want unnecessary death to evoke empathy in all places and times, you have to be more inclusive. So, strategically, it’s better to say YEA to Neda, but let’s not forget all those other people too, instead of saying harrumph to Neda.
    And even more than being concerned about even-handedness in death-concerns, you need to link those deaths to things that your targets are likely to experience. The link between the unfortunate and the possible empathizer is crucial because, again, empathy is likely more about oneself than about the other.

    Reply

  98. PissedOffAmerican says:

    “The difference between Neda’s death and innocent Iraqis/Palestinians is that Neda was killed by her own government or those purporting to represent the government”
    Really? You know this how? Neda was killed. Thats all we know. We don’t who killed her. She could have been targeted, or it could have been a stray bullet. She may have been purposely martyred, or she may have been a victimn of chance. We simply have no way of knowing, do we? So all YOU are doing is spewing propaganda. True, or not?
    “It’s a vicious betrayal like no other that affects a much larger cross section of a country’s population”
    Tell that to the Iraqi’s or the Palestinians, who have had their infrastructures destroyed, and their social fabric ripped asunder. To say that Neda’s death affected a “larger cross section of the country’s population” is sheer poppycock.

    Reply

  99. Outraged American says:

    UsRael intervention will kill way more Nedas.The US will need a
    draft in order to fight a war against Iran, a country that doesn’t
    threaten us at all.
    Israel needs to get the hell out of US foreign policy. That is truly the
    bottom line, along with the US needs to stop interfering with other
    countries.
    I don’t hope for world peace. I think that evil exists from a family
    level up to an international level, but at least we can try not to kill
    each other.
    Or maybe we should just kill each other and end it all. Humankind
    hasn’t done much for the world after-all.

    Reply

  100. Dirk says:

    The difference between Neda’s death and innocent Iraqis/Palestinians is that Neda was killed by her own government or those purporting to represent the government.
    It is why the massacres at Kent State resonated so strongly here.
    It’s a vicious betrayal like no other that affects a much larger cross section of a country’s population.

    Reply

  101. Outraged American says:

    David, please ask Steve to give you my email address, I’ll tell Steve
    it’s OK. I’ll tell you all about what Amy Goodman does and does
    not do to stifle IMO other independent media.

    Reply

  102. PissedOffAmerican says:

    Really, if you devote more than two brain cells to think about it, you reach the conclusion that Neda’s death is likely being used as an opening excuse to kill more Nedas.
    But when we, or Israel, kill them, they won’t have names, or faces.

    Reply

  103. Dan Kervick says:

    I think POA is basically right about this. With thousands of innocent people dying right and left all over the Middle East for several years now, many at US hands, it’s is a bit shamelessly oppotunistic for Americans to be promoting the cult of one attractive, female victim who happens to have been shot by a non-US bullet.

    Reply

  104. PissedOffAmerican says:

    What the hell is the big deal about these assholes occassionally spamming the blog? They are commenting, so its obvious they’re cognizant of the fact that none of us are so stupid that we’re clicking on their links. In short, they’re wasting their time, not our time. If it bugs you, don’t read the damned thing. It is FAR better than it was before Steve did this CAPTCHA thing, and now you want to further modify the blog format because of a few ignorant assholes that are too stupid to figure out they aren’t getting any hits off of this blog??
    Dan’s wrong. A number of people have used the URL feature to direct you to thier own blog, or to a news source. Taylor Marsh comes to mind. So does Don Bacon, if I remember right. And I have used the feature on a number of occassions to spotlight Nina’s blog.
    BFD, Steve gets an occassional spammer. Personally, the racist horseshit spewed here by the likes of Nadine is far more irritating to me than the occassional inane comment afixed to a link I have no intention of clicking on.
    But be sure to complain to Steve about it, we all know he has oodles of time he can devote to catering to each and every one of our complaints.
    Gee Steve, between flights, meetings, and posts, you wanna do us all a big favor and slay the nasty Spam Dragon?

    Reply

  105. PissedOffAmerican says:

    Honestly, I don’t get it. What is “Neda”? An attractive young lady, gunned down by we know not whom.
    How many “Nedas” were in the few hundred thousand, or more, Iraqi citizens we have slaughtered in a criminal “war” based on lies?
    How many “Nedas” has Israel slaughtered, most recently in the crime known as “Operation Cast Lead”?
    Neda matters to our politicians and our media ONLY because of her propaganda value in demonizing the Iranian governing body. Our politicians, and the criminal racists in Israel that are subsidized with our money, could care less about Muslim deaths. Fact is, both Israel and the United States have tallied a far greater body count than Iran has, by a long shot. Not a day goes by that we don’t strike down a Neda, and the same can be said for Israel.
    Truth is, this insincere posturing and grieving for this unfortunate young lady is OBSCENE. We lament the passing of a single Neda when we have murdered hundreds of thousands of them? We gringe at a photo of her last moments, when one click of the mouse will take us to the images of Palestinian children, little more than bits of charcoal, their skin boiled off by the criminal use of AMERICAN white phosphorous? We hide the images of our dead servicemen, yet flaunt the image of this poor pawn Neda, using her death to advance propaganda that may well be the bugle call to yet one more ill advised and criminal military adventure?
    Leave Neda alone. She’s gone.
    We have our own bucket of blood to bathe in, we don’t need Iran’s.

    Reply

  106. Paul Norheim says:

    I just wanted to mention that the first comment on this thread
    easily could be misunderstood as it now stands.
    When I wrote “Every dying spammer is a cure”, this was not
    intended as an insensitive remark referring to the Iran post with
    the picture of a dying woman, but to someone who had just
    posted some spam right above my comment, with the annoying
    message: “Every living person has problems” – a comment Steve
    later removed.
    The spammer provided a link to a factory in East Asia, with text
    only in Chinese or whatever… Perhaps Dan is right about the URL
    issue, I don´t know.

    Reply

  107. David says:

    This is actually the most disturbing picture of Neda. She seems to know she is dying. It is very hard but also absolutely essential to absorb this photograph and all that it says.
    Many thanks to TWN for posting this. As someone who honestly simply wants to know and try to understand, this kind of effort on the part of TWN, and the fact that Steve Clemons enjoys the kind of trust that makes it possible for him to be such a link, are what make TWN of inestimable value.
    Sidenote:
    Since I find Amy Goodman to one of the gutsiest, ablest, most intellectually honest investigative journalists out there, and have found Democracy Now to be an invaluable source going way back to its radio only days when I listened to it on WMNF (Tampa), I have to take major exception to the objections raised in Outraged American’s comment above. I’m trying to imagine what she could do to cause other independent media to fail. She has done more to bring independent journalism to a wider audience than anyone I know, and commands the respect of the likes of Bill Moyer. I just don’t get it, Outraged American.
    If I remember correctly, Pacifica Radio has had its moments of internal strife. Did Amy Goodman do anything to abet that strife, or anything to hinder independent media?

    Reply

  108. samuelburke says:

    Pentagram May Ban Twitter, Facebook
    Posted by Lew Rockwell on July 31, 2009 10:12 AM
    The Pentagon doesn’t want soldiers in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, or other victim nations to be able to send truthful items to Americans, or to receive them, on Twitter and Facebook. For “security” reasons. Oh sure, btw, that the military will actually be able to ban these great commercial enterprises. And soldiers, think about the socialist death machine that grinds you up. Think sbout the natives, who don’t want armed aliens running their countries. Come home, to those who love you. Come home, to those who will not make you wear blinders while shooting up strangers.
    http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/031459.html
    Chris Watson points out the irony: the US is condeming Iranians who allegedly wanted to shut down Twitter for security reasons.

    Reply

  109. Dave Lucas says:

    BBC and other international news networks carrying NEDA stories are also displaying a glaring PICTORIAL INACCURACY! Please see my blog (URL below) for details.
    dave-lucas.blogspot.com/2009/07/neda-cutting-away-cancerous-hoax.html
    I am really surprised that the Beeb has let this go on for so long!

    Reply

  110. ... says:

    ot – i find the story of Gary McKinnon of interest and was unaware of him before today… i think it would be of interest to many here as well..
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_McKinnon

    Reply

  111. Dan Kervick says:

    Steve or someone:
    Perhaps you could get rid of most of the recent spam you have been seeing by eliminating the “URL” field in the “Leave a Comment” area. My impression is that this kind of spam is designed to target sites that allow user names to be linked to a URL.
    I just checked, and it doesn’t appear that any of the regular commenters here link their names to a URL. So is the URL option really necessary? As always, anybody who really wants to leave a link to something relevant can paste the link in the body of their post.

    Reply

  112. American Eatery Restaurant Reviews, Reservations says:

    Since I’m new to blogging, these articles are greatly appreciated; very useful and informative blog and every body must visit this blog. Please come visit my site Restaurant Fast food Directory when you got time.

    Reply

  113. Cato the Censor says:

    Thanks very much, Mr. Clemons, for posts like these. They help in understanding the situation in Iran. The protestors there are extremely brave and have my admiration. I echo the previous commenter: I just wish the American people had this much guts.

    Reply

  114. samuelburke says:

    why are americans turning away from the major newspapers and major broadcasting companies when it comes to getting their news?
    because they are biased mouthpieces of the washington elite.
    i come here to get news and all i get is re:re:regurgitated govt propaganda.
    good job boys youll all get the best seats on titanics next voyage.

    Reply

  115. JohnH says:

    Once again TWN is spotlighting the protesters in Iran, and blacking out the protesters and the repression in Honduras.
    http://www.chavezcode.com/2009/07/major-repression-in-honduras-curfew.html

    Reply

  116. Outraged American says:

    Amy Goodman has done more to kill “alternative” media than
    anyone on the so-called left, in my opinion. And I do have
    some experience in this arena. Four and a half years worth.
    Some of the producers at KPFK, the Pacifica station in LA, used
    to call her show “Hypocrisy Now” Why? Because, in their
    opinion, she sucked-up the meager resources of other
    “alternative” news/interview shows, while nattering on about
    how America desperately needs news sources outside of
    corporate media.
    I think that she does some great work, but I also think that she
    considers herself the Queen Bee, or at least appears to, and, like
    a lot of the left, eats the rest of left -leaning independent
    media. Do bees eat? What do they eat? Flowers? Barefoot feet?
    On topic:
    Pat Buchanan might be dead wrong on a lot of things, but he’s
    usually right about US foreign policy (H/T antiwar.com)
    Tell Israel: Cool the Jets!
    Former U.N. Ambassador John Bolton, who is wired into the
    cabinet of “Bibi” Netanyahu, warns that if Iran’s nuclear program
    is not aborted by December, Israel will strike to obliterate it.
    Defense Secretary Gates’ mission to Israel this week, says
    Bolton, to relay Obama’s red light, was listened to attentively,
    but will not be decisive.
    Israel will decide.
    ENTIRE ARTICLE
    http://tinyurl.com/lvrovf
    And if you want to read something that really brings home the
    mental cost of war, here’s an amazing article by a reporter out of
    Colorado Springs, talking about the horrendous crimes being
    committed by soldiers coming back. They’ve been trained to kill
    and are now killing at home.
    It’s a must read!
    (H/T InformationClearinghouse.info – one of the best sites on
    the web)
    http://informationclearinghouse.info/article23154.htm

    Reply

  117. samuelburke says:

    this twitter revolution has more legs than a centipede…i wish the gaza crimes commited by israel would have gotten more attention but alas american political types know which side their bread gets buttered….and have turned cowards all.
    The “fusion centers” are the product of a supposedly “wholistic” theory of intelligence-gathering adopted by the burgeoning Homeland Security bureaucracy in the post-9/11 era, an approach that integrates the intelligence-gathering facilities of various government agencies and pools them in designated “fusion centers.
    http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2009/07/30/obamas-secret-police/
    Well, we can relax, because the bad old days of the Bush administration, when government agencies routinely spied on the antiwar movement and other dissidents, are over — right?
    Wrong – very wrong.
    The indispensable Amy Goodman has the scoop: The Seattle Port Militarization Resistance (SPMR) group Washington state thought that their listserv coordinator, who went by the name “John Jacob,” was one of them: a dedicated antiwar activist and self-described anarchist. They trusted him, they put him in a key position, they befriended him – and then they found out that he was a government informant.
    His real name: John Towery (here’s his myspace page, and here is a photo). He claimed to be a civilian employee at Washington state’s Ft. Lewis: in reality, he was and is a functionary of the force protection unit, i.e. military personnel. His job: spying on the antiwar movement.
    Towery was “outed” when one of SPMR’s members filed a public records request in the city of Olympia for any documents, including emails, in the city’s possession that referenced communications between the city police and the military regarding “anything on anarchists, anarchy, anarchism, Students for a Democratic Society or the Industrial Workers of the World,”

    Reply

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