End the Siege of Israel

-

gaza_1227.jpg
This is a guest note by Fadi Elsalameen, Executive Director of The Palestine Note. This piece originally appeared in Haaretz.
Israel’s deadly attack on the “Freedom Flotilla” is proof of how Gaza continues to give Israel a taste of its own medicine. Intended to help solve Israel’s problems with Hamas, the three-year-old siege of Gaza is developing into a siege of Israel, while it causes tremendous damage to the country’s image around the world.
It should be clear to both Israel and the United States by now that the siege of Gaza has failed to accomplish its goals. Israel has failed to weaken Hamas, free Gilad Shalit or even put an end to arms smuggling.
To Israel’s dismay, Hamas has succeeded in putting the spotlight on Gaza and directing world attention to the country’s irrational policies toward not only the Palestinians, but also its own citizens.
From outside, the situation in Gaza may appear unsustainable for Hamas, but in fact the Islamic movement and its supporters are content to wait it out, calling Israel’s bluff on the blockade. Indeed some cynics believe the current status quo is the best situation the Palestinians have enjoyed in a long time.
Late last month, at the fifth annual Al Jazeera forum in Doha, Osama Hamdan of Hamas and Ibrahim el-Moussaoui of Hezbollah applauded and shook hands with Abdel Bari Atwan, the editor of Al-Quds Al-Arabi, a widely circulated pan-Arabist newspaper, when he said: “I have good news: There is a Palestinian split. Things have never been better before. One camp is with the Americans, the Israelis and seculars, and the other camp is with Iran and Islamists. So, if one side loses, the other is bound to win, and this has been the best and safest situation for the Palestinians in a long time.”
Atwan is known to favor the latter camp, and from his “good news,” one can surmise that he is betting it is on its way to winning – clearly with tremendous help from the siege of Gaza.
What is even more unsettling from the point of view of peace-loving Palestinians is the fact that Israel’s top politicians are aware of the implications of their damaging policies, even as they refuse to change them.
After meeting with Defense Minister Ehud Barak two months ago at his office in Tel Aviv, I walked away believing he understood that unless Israel changes its policies vis-a-vis my people, sooner or later the world will see those policies for what they are: apartheid. I believe the deadly attack on the flotilla, and the worldwide reactions that followed, are confirming Barak’s fears – and sooner, rather than later. Israel’s policies are no longer acceptable to the world community, and a change in policy is crucial.
The day after the Mavi Marmara incident, the head of the Mossad, Meir Dagan, bluntly told the Knesset: “Israel is becoming more of a liability and less of an asset for the United States.”
The siege of Gaza has been going on for nearly three years, and strategically speaking, so far, Israel and its allies have been the biggest losers. The reaction from both the world’s governments and its peoples to last week’s attack shows not only the growing intolerance of Israel’s policies, but an urgent need for Israel to rethink its long-term goals. Is it to exist as a democracy, and in peace with its neighbors, or will it continue to be the Palestinians’ landlords?
If Israel’s goal is to be a permanent landlord, then its future in the region is clear: More and more disgruntled Arab and Muslim youth will continue to join the lines of resistance against the apartheid in the territories and will continue to threaten the stability of the already weak neighboring Arab regimes. It is important to note that a large number of the people on the ships bound for Gaza were young Arabs from almost every country in the region. Today they may come on ships with peace activists, tomorrow they will storm the borders with jihadist movements. Then, it will not only be Israel facing them. Their own regimes and the United States will also have to face the consequences.
The fact that Turkey and Iran are sending aid to the Palestinians and criticizing Israel’s policies will not only undermine the legitimacy of the nearby Arab regimes, which are already seen as helpless and ineffective, but will also lead their populations to draw inspiration from those two countries.
Egypt, realizing that its regime is weak and unstable, has already felt the heat and immediately opened the Rafah crossing with Gaza, which it intends to leave open.
So, is Israel ready to think seriously about long-term solutions, or does it intend to simply continue to impose a siege on itself?
Israel’s leaders – with the help of the United States and the international community – must redefine their country’s long-term vision and goals, and allow a Palestinian state to exist by its side. If Israel’s goal is to live in a democracy and in peace with the Palestinians, then its path should be clear: Lift the siege on Gaza, encourage a unity government, and let the Palestinians build their own democracy.
– Fadi Elsalameen

Comments

137 comments on “End the Siege of Israel

  1. PissedOffAmerican says:

    “One thing this dog and pony show demonstrates is that no one trusts in their God”
    Unfortunately, I think your premise heads in the wrong direction.
    I think the more radical of the two sides, (those feeding the hatred), are extreme in their faith, believing that God has sanctioned their actions.

    Reply

  2. Jerry says:

    Time is on the side of the Palestinians not the Israelis.
    One thing this dog and pony show demonstrates is that no one trusts in their God.

    Reply

  3. PissedOffAmerican says:

    http://www.cjc.ca/
    Truth is, there are a multitude of powerful Jewish and Israeli Lobby groups in Canada. To deny it is a bald faced lie.

    Reply

  4. PissedOffAmerican says:

    As usual, Marcus is full of shit.
    http://www.rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/murray-dobbin/2010/02/who-determines-canadas-israeli-policy
    Who determines Canada’s Israel policy?
    By Murray Dobbin | February 2, 2010
    It has been said by many American commentators critical of Israeli policy in the occupied territories that Israel in effect writes U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East. It is hard to dispute the claim even though on occasion the U.S. does balk at the most outrageous Israeli plans such as its eagerness to bomb Iranian nuclear sites (the U.S. knows it wouldn’t stop there and a wider war would almost certainly ensue). If any proof were needed one only has to look at the policies of Barack Obama who, it could be argued, is even more sycophantic towards Israel than George Bush was.
    Before he was inaugurated as president, Obama made it clear that the enormous military and civilian aid provided by the U.S. — some $2.5 billion a year — was not on the table. In other words, before even developing a policy towards Israel, Obama gave up literally the only leverage he had. And just in case the Israelis were too slow to get the message he followed by allowing Israel to continue building more settlements in the West Bank — literally the only deal breaker as far as the Palestinians are concerned. It was an unmistakable message: the U.S. has no intention of pressing for a peace deal and the two-state solution, the focus of bargaining for 20 years, is dead.
    It is difficult to imagine a country more accepting than the U.S. of any Israeli policy or bad faith but Stephen Harper and his Israel file manager, Jason Kenney, have shown they can outdo the U.S. The Harper government appears to develop its policy vis a vis Israel and the Palestinians not from any consideration of Canadian interests in the Middle East or by any reference to the considerable expertise in DFAIT — the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade. These normal inputs into foreign policy are simply by-passed and the government seems to simply seek the direction of Frank Dimant, executive vice president of Jewish advocacy group B’Nai Brith. Every time Canada announces another policy plank — that is, an attack on any agency or civil society group that ever criticizes Israel — Dimant is there to congratulate them.
    The latest chapter was revealed recently (following closely on the heels of the attack on Kairos and the elimination of its $7 million development budget) — the decision by Ottawa to cancel its $15 million (we were the seventh largest donor) in general fund contributions to UNRWA — the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East, or UNRWA, alleging strong ties between it and terrorist groups. Like the claim used to justify the cancellation of funding to Kairos (that it was a strong advocate of the boycott of Israel) this claim is vehemently denied by literally everyone close to the situation except, of course, Israel, B’nai Brith and other Israeli lobby groups in Canada. The government’s own foreign affairs officials have never made such a claim.
    CIDA Minister Bev Oda and (then) Treasury Board president Vic Toews two weeks ago quietly confirmed that Canada’s would be directing its $15 million specifically to “food security” instead of supplementing core funding and the general budget of UNRWA.
    According to Canadians for Justice and Peace in the Middle East (CJPME): “UNRWA provides assistance to 4.67 million Palestinian refugees scattered throughout the Middle East and administers programs in the areas of education, health and other social services in 59 Palestinian refugee camps. The agency operates solely through donations from various organizations and governments. It is currently under severe financial duress due to the increasing number of Palestinian refugees, the deterioration of their socio-economic level, unemployment and food insecurity.”
    The alleged terrorist group that the UN is “tied” to is Hamas — the duly elected government in the Gaza Strip. As with the Kairos example, the government presented no evidence of any kind to support its claim.

    Reply

  5. PissedOffAmerican says:

    “YET in Canada, there are no JEWISH members of Cabinet, almost no, perhaps not even one member of Parilment as far as I Know,only two three senators, no AIPAC. no jewish lobby groups of any weight or much influence”
    Complete and utter horseshit. You should stick to obscene and vulgar insinuations, you disingenuous little jackass…
    http://www.cicweb.ca/
    “Mission”
    “The Canada-Israel Committee (CIC) is the official representative of the organized Canadian Jewish community on matters pertaining to Canada-Israel relations. CIC is an agency funded by the Canadian Council for Israel and Jewish Advocacy, the advocacy arm of United Israel Appeal Canada (UIAC)”
    “The CIC is devoted to the promotion of increased understanding between the peoples of Canada and Israel. It is a non-partisan, voluntary, non-profit organization that enjoys the support of Canadians from all walks of life. In seeking to enhance Canada-Israel friendship, the CIC liaises with government, media, business and the academic sector, often submitting briefs and providing background analyses on matters of public policy. In addition, it sponsors seminars, conferences and other types of educational programming in Canada, and organizes study missions to Israel and the Palestinian areas”
    “The Canada-Israel Committee maintains offices in Ottawa, Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver and Israel, and is affiliated with the Quebec-Israel Committee. Its staff consists of experts in government policy, communications, Arab-Israeli relations and Middle East affairs, and Canadian Middle East policy”

    Reply

  6. DonS says:

    “we are Israel`s greatest friend on the world stage.
    What`s your explanation ??????????????????????? ”
    This is very embarrassing, since i am living in Canada at the moment, but you know that cliche about Canada following the US in major political trends, i.e., like a poodle. Well with you current Harper government there is a clutching to anything American of a conservative bent.
    The interesting question is with the US (and Canada???) as the only nations sucking up to Israel you have to ask yourself can the US be so right and the rest of the world so wrong? I know, you probably think ‘yes’. But that defies the laws of gravity. Better to assume that Israel homed it’s sights on the big dog, the super power extraordinaire. They done a good job, eh?

    Reply

  7. Marcus says:

    Carroll,Your propaganda today is way off base concerning the “monster” gas field discovered in israeli waters, it`s actually Lebanon who is accusing Israel of stealing it`s gas , not Gaza. LOL
    It seems like Turkey will be the biggest geo-political/finacial LOSER from this find,
    when god closes one door , he opens another.

    Reply

  8. Marcus says:

    Carroll and pos….. your`e both cliches, we have heard it all before ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
    Let`s see if you can come up with something original ,ok kids ?
    Anwser the following question:
    Canada today is widely considered to be Israel`s greatest friend,we have a free trade agreement,increasing trade and military ties,diplomatically ,etc.
    YET in Canada, there are no JEWISH members of Cabinet, almost no, perhaps not even one member of Parilment as far as I Know,only two three senators, no AIPAC. no jewish lobby groups of any weight or much influence,very little jewish ownership of our leftist media, very low % of the population,no control over any of the major industrial or economic enigines of our economy,no interest in the banks, (our elections are publically funded)in fact jews in canada are mostly apolitical yet or NON_JEWISH politicians are almost universally STEADFAST behind Israel.(except a very few on the hard left)
    ,we are Israel`s greatest friend on the world stage.
    What`s your explanation ???????????????????????
    We have a minority government,but it has never been challenged on any of it`s pro-israel stands by any of the opposition parties in Parliment.
    (let`s see if you can explain this without descending into racsist mass sterotyping and demonisation of the Canadian electorate)
    We do it simply because it`s the right thing to do and I defy either of you to present a different rationale.

    Reply

  9. Carroll says:

    Actually the stealing of Gaza’s gas fields has been going on for some years now. If memory serves, at first the Israelis tried to get BP involved in the deal and I beleive BP backed out due to some pressure by another oil country. The Israelis have shopped around and shopped around and now I beleive they are in some deal with Brownstone to “slant drill” meaning directional drilling, sink a hole on your land and direct it underground into your neighbors land and gas field. It’s illegal to do this of course unless you are doing it on your own property for whatever access problems with direct drilling.
    The Israelis did the same thing with West Bank aquafilters to steal Palestine water. In case no one heard me before let me say again that the Israelis are no more than common street theives, who put a knife to your throat and steal and your wallet. And their US jewish cousins?…well they drive the get away car for the robbers.
    Chomsky says Israel is pillaging Gaza

    Reply

  10. Paul Norheim says:

    For the sake of clarity, POA:
    I’m not questioning your personal motives. I’m also sure
    Carroll’s humanitarian concerns are real concerns. But as I
    said almost three years ago here, (and have repeated since
    then): I think those of us who criticize Israel and it’s
    supporters in the US Congress and elsewhere, as well as
    the Jewish lobbies, should separate the rhetoric of
    criticism from the historical vocabulary of anti-Semitism.
    I fail to see how this should be so difficult. Walt and
    Mearsheimer succeeded by doing so. They actually
    managed to break the taboo of criticizing the Jewish-
    American lobbies. In my view, one of the obvious reasons
    for their success was that they didn’t fall into the familiar
    rhetorical trap, but were precise in defining their targets. I
    see no reason to go further in the sense of blaming “the
    Jews” or expressing disgust with Jews as a group. That
    would not be a “progressive” step, but a reactionary step.
    ——————
    Carroll said:
    “Maybe that is why you are so dependent and attached to
    the literary, you must depend on others minds for insight
    and depth.”
    I can confirm that, Carroll. I am in debt to countless of
    other minds. Thanks to others, I’ve learned to eat, walk,
    speak, think, write, translate, and get a glimpse into
    experiences far beyond my own limited private life here
    and now. And yes, literature is one, among several other
    sources of insight that I am immensely indebted
    to…bordering on bankruptcy!
    Only fools and very young people imagine that they can
    come up with some original thoughts by avoiding the
    thoughts and experiences of others who lived before
    them, as if their natural originality somehow gets
    corrupted by reading or listening to others. Young people
    eventually become older and – hopefully – wiser. Fools
    just get older, year by year.
    It’s an inescapable fact of life that everyone depends on
    other minds. The trick is not to close your ears, but listen
    to other brilliant and not-so-brilliant minds while
    searching for your own thoughts, in some kind of inner
    dialogue. If not, you’ll just repeat the clich

    Reply

  11. Carroll says:

    Question: Why does Schumer et al do all this nasty stuff in
    congress?
    Wrong answer: Because they are Jews.
    Although it’s unlikely that Schumer would have done what
    he does if he was a Protestant of Dutch origins, this
    doesn’t mean that if you’re a Jew, you’ll become like
    Schumer and his friends.
    By extension:
    Question: Why are these people so evil, and crazy enough
    to drag us into WWIII?
    Wrong answer: Because they are Jews.
    Didn’t you mention something about renting a brain in a
    former post? I can provide a phone number to an excellent
    company. I’ve used them for years, and they are first rate.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    The more you talk the deeper hole you dig for yourself.
    Do you think it escapes anyone’s attention that you extrapolate my statement that Schumer does what he does because he’s a Jew to all Jews do like Schumer does?
    Because you can’t win the argument you do what the zionazis on here do…misquote and add to comments to try and defend yourself….trust me we all notice.
    You need to demand your money back from the Rent a Brain Service…it’s obviously a rip off and hasn’t worked for you.
    Actually I am disappointed, really, that you are not more of a challenge intellectually on this issue. Maybe that is why you are so dependent and attached to the literary, you must depend on others minds for insight and depth. That is probably also why you are stuck on the defend the jews against anti semitism, you simply repeat the cliches you hear.
    The Living and the Dead
    By Richard Sale, author of Clinton

    Reply

  12. PissedOffAmerican says:

    Call it what you will, Paul. I will no longer be intimidated by undeserved accusations of anti-semitism. Am I anti-clergy for decrying the Catholic Church’s tolerance of the sexual abuse of children? Anti-mexican because I am sick of rampant illegal immigration?
    And the white phosphorous will keep raining, the assassinations will continue, the land will keep getting stolen, the politicians will keep getting bribed, the americans will keep getting murdered and maimed, the media will keep lying to us, and the complicit Jews will get a free pass for doing all of this. All because the world is afraid of offending the apparently small minority of Jews that aren’t participating in or condoning racial hatred, international crimes, and inhumane atrocities based in religious and ethnic bigotry.
    Go examine the AIPAC website, Paul. THESE are the “Jews” that hold sway over the narrative, with the ax of political assassination poised over any of our leaders or statesman that dare oppose them. These aren’t “Israelis” manning the ranks of AIPAC, Paul. These are American Jews. And they are corrupting, coercing, bribing, and destroying the integrity of every one of these cowardly pieces of shit in Washington, with rare exception.
    Let them do it to Norway, THEN pass judgement of Carroll and I.

    Reply

  13. Paul Norheim says:

    Correction, due to possible connotations: four times a day
    (or eight).

    Reply

  14. Paul Norheim says:

    Carroll said: “Jews in congress like Schumer that
    OBVIOUSLY do what they do because they are JEWISH.”
    Ooops, there you have the logical fallacy, Carroll, and the
    capital letters do not make it more coherent.
    Question: Why does Schumer et al do all this nasty stuff in
    congress?
    Wrong answer: Because they are Jews.
    Although it’s unlikely that Schumer would have done what
    he does if he was a Protestant of Dutch origins, this
    doesn’t mean that if you’re a Jew, you’ll become like
    Schumer and his friends.
    By extension:
    Question: Why are these people so evil, and crazy enough
    to drag us into WWIII?
    Wrong answer: Because they are Jews.
    Didn’t you mention something about renting a brain in a
    former post? I can provide a phone number to an excellent
    company. I’ve used them for years, and they are first rate.
    Hey Carroll and POA, I don’t mind you two calling Schumer
    a JEW with capital letters. If you have fun doing so, go for
    it!
    The problem lies elsewhere, like for instance when POA
    starts asking questions like:
    “When does disgust with the Jews cease being “anti-
    semitism”, and become the truly moral position to
    assume?”
    This is ABC, folks. “Disgust with the Jews” happens to be
    the proper definition of anti-Semitism, and this doesn’t
    change even if you two commenters managed to save the
    planet from World War 3 by screaming JEWS, JEWS, JEWS
    five times a day.

    Reply

  15. Carroll says:

    I’ll never accept the elimination of that crucial distinction.
    It’s the logical foundation that legitimates terrorism,
    committed both by states and all kinds of movements. It’s
    the mindset that leads to collective punishment, pogroms,
    random killing with bombs in marked places and
    restaurants and wedding parties. One day it hits the Jews;
    the next day it hits the Palestinians on the Gaza strip; the
    Muslims; the Americans.
    I rest my case.”
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    More bullshit.
    We are talking about a SPECIFIC group currently wreaking destruction and havoc on others NOW..TODAY.
    And we aren’t going to attack it or do anything about it because some day, some where, in some future it might lead to collective punishment of some other group? That’s your arguement?
    Well following your position of avoiding criticism of ‘groups” regardless of what they do everyone one in the world would likely be slaves or dead except maybe the Quakers and the Buddhist.
    Damn! we could have not wasted millions of allied lives if we had just left the nazis alone and not bad mouthed their agenda. Why didn’t we think of Paul’s theory back then?
    People who align themselves with a group or agenda have to accept the consquences of their choice. And yes innocent bystanders get hurt….Which is CAUSED by the group or groups.
    So, pick a side right or wrong or just stand by and get whatever what you get.
    You don’t have a case to rest because you don’t have a case. Try to think ahead when you make your statements and don’t apply universal ‘generalizing’ to a current specific problem.

    Reply

  16. Carroll says:

    Posted by Paul Norheim, Jun 18 2010, 7:06AM – Link
    It is little words like “specifically” and “the same we give
    others” that makes the whole difference here – a world apart
    from the generalizations and scapegoating I objected to.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Oh bullshit…you attacked me just to get a conversation going. Well now you have one going and you can’t get out of it.
    I ‘specifically’ mean the Jewish leadership AND
    the Jewish community that supports them AND the Jews in congress like Schumer that OBVIOUSLY do what they do because they are JEWISH…’tribal’ primitive Jews, “its all about the jews” and to hell with the rest of the world ….Jews.
    And the jewish community’s part..or the part of the jewish community that supports this crap?
    Well that was the easy part for the zios..hang with us you Jews and you will get special treatment, you will be given all kinds of exceptions and privilages, your every delusion will be indulged….you can be the ‘chosen people’ courtesy of the US superpower and ‘Somebody’ with power at long last!
    And lots of them fell for it.
    But what?… you thought we were just going to hand over this country to the Israelis and Jews and let them drag the US into a war for the Jews and Israel…because it’s ‘anti semitic’ and not polite to criticize the poor victimized “Jews” or a single Jew because he or she is a …gasp…Jew?
    Gee golly whiz…why can’t we be just like the Germans and sit on our asses and not publically criticize or attack our Chosen Aryan Race members and their Chosen people agenda.
    I guess you didn’t get the memo…we have recently revived an old American custom of calling a spade a spade. Yes, upsetting for some I am sure, but there’s no more lipstick available for pigs.

    Reply

  17. Paul Norheim says:

    Carroll said:
    “Rent a brain …you destroy your own arguements with
    your own brainwashed ‘simplistic’ idea that Jews and or
    Israelis can’t be blamed or talked about as the Germans or
    nazis were…or the communist were or any other group.”
    “Germans or Nazis…” Well there is a minor difference
    there, isn’t it? It was the demonization of the Germans en
    bloc – eliminating the distinction between the Nazis and
    the civil German population – that legitimated the terror
    bombing of Dresden and Hamburg during WWII. And we
    all know what happened to the yellow commies, the
    millions of peasants in Vietnam and Laos around 40 years
    ago.
    I’ll never accept the elimination of that crucial distinction.
    It’s the logical foundation that legitimates terrorism,
    committed both by states and all kinds of movements. It’s
    the mindset that leads to collective punishment, pogroms,
    random killing with bombs in marked places and
    restaurants and wedding parties. One day it hits the Jews;
    the next day it hits the Palestinians on the Gaza strip; the
    Muslims; the Americans.
    I rest my case.

    Reply

  18. PissedOffAmerican says:

    Then theres Marcus. A Jew that accuses Carroll of “having anal sex with Muslim men”. Brags that he has hacked into my computer. Accuses me of “sucking Araftat’s dick”. Posts that I “have herpes”. And all with a roaming ISP, so his spew cannot be terminated, or his location determined.
    The reaction here from the other jews that post here??? Nothing. Nada. They disgrace themselves by their silence on a par with Marcus’s self disgracing and obscenely vulgar form of ad hominem.
    ONE sole open and self-professed Jew here, Jdell, offers the occcassional snippet of sanity, honesty, human compassion, and integrity.
    Marcus claims to be sowing trees when he is actually sowing anti-semitism. He and his ilk are as powerful an enemy to the Jews as radical Islam is.

    Reply

  19. Carroll says:

    The US Jews have a problem and we have a problem with them. Period.
    Whatever ‘portion’ of the Jews in the US that have caused the “Israel’ problem for the rest of America and the world are the ones the Jews need to address if they are worried about anti semitism and another holocaust. It’s ‘their tribe’ and ‘their people’ as they say, they can clean it up or the rest of the world will. No one is going to accept that Jews and their “Jewish state’ are ‘exceptions to the rules’ and have special ‘rights’ any longer.
    They started undermining American interest in favor of their tribalism long ago. Every American in Truman’s adm advised him what was going to happen in the future if he supported zionism in the ME. They were right.
    “Truman was a key figure in the establishment of the Jewish state in the Palestine Mandate. In shaping his policy toward Palestine, Truman experienced continuous pressures, especially from the Jewish community, virtually from the moment he took office as president.[117] Truman writes, “Top Jewish leaders in the United States were putting all sorts of pressure on me to commit American power and forces on behalf of the Jewish aspirations in Palestine.”[118] In 1946, an Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry recommended the gradual establishment of two states in Palestine, with neither Jews nor Arabs dominating. However, there was little Zionist support for the two-state proposal.[119]
    At the urging of the British, a special U.N. committee, UNSCOP, recommended the immediate partitioning of Palestine into two states, and with Truman’s support, this initiative was approved by the General Assembly on November 29, 1947.
    According to Truman, “The facts were that not only were there pressure movements around the United Nations unlike anything that had been seen there before, but that the White House, too, was subjected to a constant barrage. I do not think I ever had as much pressure and propaganda aimed at the White House as I had in this instance.

    The persistence of the extreme Zionist leaders

    Reply

  20. Marcus says:

    POA; You had written a few days ago that you were finished posting here, but since there is not a single shred of truth in any of your posts, I didn`t believe you, so I made a bet with myself that you would re-surface soon enough,and you did !
    I want you to know that the money I won (from myself) will be used to plant a tree in the west bank ( not far from Rammallah ) during my up-coming trip to Israel in the middle of July.
    I intend to pay a little extra to affix a plaque,dedicating the tree to you POA (I`m going to call you something else,but know that it will be your tree), as a reminder to any who pass,that it is vitally important for jews to settle / Liberate / annex Judea and samaria, because the world is full of racist anti-semites.
    This tree will be there long after your gone,but you should know that you have done your little part in strengthining the resolve of the jewish people to stay strong and resolute.
    PS; It will be a large , broad tree, that will give shade and comfort to the jews who have settled nearby, you can count on that .

    Reply

  21. PissedOffAmerican says:

    I can mention Catholicism when I decry child sexual abuse by the clergy.
    I can mention Mormonism when I decry the practice of polygamy.
    I can mention Christianity when I recall the horrible and bloody crusades.
    But I can’t mention ***aism when I point out ongoing international crimes, attrocities, human rights abuses, and blatant racism?
    I’m not going to observe that unjustly imposed social censorship any longer. With Jews like Marcus and Nadine, Dershowitz or Schumer, Harmon or Cantor now coming to the front as Jewish spokespeople and advocates, the term “Israelis” is no longer approps. With American “Jewish groups” controlling the narrative, imposing strict expectations on my nation’s leaders and statesmen, the term “Israelis” is no longer apropos. With Israeli society swinging to the radical religious right, the term “Israelis” no longer descibes the motivational factor behind Israel’s crimes and atrocities. As the society shifts, so too does its motivation. If Israel wants to be known as a “Jewish State”, and commits crimes and atrocities under this mantle, than its time to recognize “Jewish” crimes and atrocities.
    Is this anti-semitic? Or, are Israel’s crimes and atrocities anti-semitic as long as they are done upon their self described religious foundation? By their own rhetoric, the Israelis admit that their crimes and atrocities are being committed to maintain a “Jewish State”. It is a self-proclaimed “Jewish State” that dumps white phosphorous on women and children. It is a self-proclaimed “Jewish State” that commits regular and frequent acts of espionage against the United States. Its is a self-proclaimed “Jewish State” that commits international terrorist attacks and assassinations against its percieved “opponents”. It is a self-proclaimed “Jewish State” that kills and maims American citizens with impunity.
    We are supposed to ignore this huge portion of the mosaic?

    Reply

  22. "Jew hater", or fed up and disgusted American??? says:

    Double Speak: Israel

    Reply

  23. Paul Norheim says:

    Carroll said: “…give me a specific reason why
    Jewish activist specifically, and their minons, shouldn’t get
    the same criticism and disgust we give to other vile special
    interest and self interested only ‘groups” and lobbist who
    influence our government to act against the majority
    American’s interest.”
    They should, and fortunately they are increasingly getting
    the same criticism, at least since Walt and Mearsheimer.
    It is little words like “specifically” and “the same we give
    others” that makes the whole difference here – a world apart
    from the generalizations and scapegoating I objected to.

    Reply

  24. Cee says:

    I wonder if Engel and Lieberman support these people
    Police across the country were on high alert, as thousands of protesters massed near the main entrance to Jerusalem, the vast majority men dressed in the traditional black of the ultra-Orthodox, an AFP correspondent said.
    The protests were called after a Supreme Court ruling ordered the jailing of a group of Ashkenazi parents of European origin who are refusing to send their daughters to a school with Jewish girls of Middle Eastern, or Sephardi, descent.
    But although the ruling effectively pitted the ultra-Orthodox Ashkenazis against the Sephardis, both communities have come together for a mass protest against what they see as the intolerable intervention of the secular state in their religious affairs.
    Some held banners proclaiming “The Torah Rules!” referring to the supremacy of Biblical law over the secular justice system.
    Others carried placards referring to the defiant parents at the centre of the spat, which said: “The Prisoners of Immanuel are representatives of Israel.”

    Reply

  25. Carroll says:

    Posted by Paul Norheim, Jun 17 2010, 9:26PM – Link
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    I suggest you worry about your own moral clarity…POA’s is just fine.
    “But what about the rest of the Jewish Americans (*let’s just insert Germans instead)? Who
    opposed it? Or who don’t give a damn about the conflict?
    Did they deserve to become scapegoats, (*eternally on the hook for the Jews), or do you simply not care, because you demand a simplistic explanation of the whole complex mess.”
    Rent a brain …you destroy your own arguements with your own brainwashed ‘simplistic’ idea that Jews and or Israelis can’t be blamed or talked about as the Germans or nazis were…or the communist were or any other group.
    Give us a reason why we shouldn’t talk about the political Jews or ‘the Jews’ that have polluted our political process and policy to the point of openly demanding and pushing this country into a ‘war for Israel’.
    Come on let’s hear it.
    And don’t stray into the shift the blame game with evangelicals, or the teabaggers or etc….give me a specific reason why
    Jewish activist specifically, and their minons, shouldn’t get the same criticism and disgust we give to other vile special interest and self interested only ‘groups” and lobbist who influence our government to act against the majority American’s interest.
    We are all ears….just one thing, you can’t use the jews every century since time began victimhood and the 65 year old holocaust in your arguement as a reason why the jewish community and leadership can’t be attacked for what they are doing and supporting today.

    Reply

  26. PissedOffAmerican says:

    “But what about the rest of the Jewish Americans? Who oppose it?”
    Where are they, Paul? Is “Americans For Peace Now” on a competitive level with AIPAC? Do you see American Jews, in any numbers, seeking to change the narrative? Where are the numbers of Jews challenging Dershowitz’s venom, or Lieberman’s displaced loyalties?
    And don’t bandy the word “hatred” about as if it is motivational to my opinions. Its not. I don’t “hate”. Anything, or anyone.
    But I AM disgusted and repulsed by the stranglehold Israel has on my government, the despicable treatment of the Palestinians at the hands of the Israelis, and the increasingly abhorant Israeli atrocities that are being condoned and justified by an increasing number of Jews, both American and Israeli.

    Reply

  27. DonS says:

    When something as powerful as the American ‘policy’ vis a vis Israel becomes ensconced as if in concrete in the political system it really is futile to look for causes/scapegoats. What is needed is a way out of the dead end reflexivity.
    Getting politicians to even respond in an honest way, as if there really is a problem that hamstrings rational foreign policy, seems to go nowhere. And as long as politicians continue to respond to AIPAC prompts and dollars by asking “how high” change will not be initiated from the United States in any meaningful way, IMO.

    Reply

  28. Paul Norheim says:

    So you’re tempted to blame the whole affair on the
    American Jews?
    But while you’re at it, you shouldn’t ignore those Israel
    Firsters among Evangelical Christians who are powerful
    “friends of Israel” as well. Are you inclined to blame the
    Christian Americans in general as well?
    I can’t understand why you would want to involve millions
    of people within this or that group, while knowing that so
    many of them are against, ambivalent, confused, neutral,
    or completely indifferent to the whole issue?
    But yeah, POA: If you insist on blaming one single large
    group with a multitude of positions and non-positions on
    this issue – blaming one group to satisfy a reductionist
    desire for THE explanation and a scapegoat – so go ahead.
    But don’t say in hindsight that no one told you that this
    scapegoat business does not make sense, neither on a
    political, moral or intellectual level.
    Sure, Lieberman and many other American politicians
    would not have taken this destructive position without
    being backed up and pressured by zealots and lobbying
    groups within the Jewish American community.
    Jews? Sure, Jews.
    But what about the rest of the Jewish Americans? Who
    oppose it? Or who don’t give a damn about the conflict?
    Do they deserve to become scapegoats, or do you simply
    not care, because you demand a simplistic explanation of
    the whole complex mess? Some sort of “moral clarity” and
    a definable target? Or perhaps just an extension of your
    vocabulary of insults and invectives?
    I can’t argue with your emotions and your hatred against
    Israel and it’s American supporters, POA. But sometimes
    I’m worried that your moral outrage and hatred is
    undermining your sound and robust common sense.

    Reply

  29. PissedOffAmerican says:

    Push To Sanction Backers of Gaza Flotilla Gains Steam in U.S.
    Jewish Leaders, Lawmakers Seek

    Reply

  30. PissedOffAmerican says:

    “You and others, POA, may think that this is a self serving attempt to portrait myself as some moral example, better then the rest of you”
    Actually, no, Paul. Thats not how I see you. What I do percieve, however, is someone that too often turns a poster’s careless emotionalism into something more sinister.
    In truth, when you cut through the salt of Carroll’s commentary, you find someone very much concerned with human rights, and rightfully angered and disillusioned by the hypocritical manner in which human rights are debated when Israel is involved.
    What you are seeing, in both Carroll’s and my comments and opinions, is a simple manifestation of cause and effect. As Israel’s actions and advocates become further radicalized to the right, so too does opposition to Israel become further radicalized. This is occurring on many levels, from increasingly angry and emotional reactions to Israel’s atrocities, posted on political blogs, to mainstream media beginning to offer trinkets of dissatisfaction with Israel’s actions, to one time allies of Israel turning their backs, (such as Turkey), to increased acts of terrorism against Israel, and by extension, the United States.
    In short, Israel is becoming its own worst enemy. And ours. And by self description, Israel is a “Jewish State”.
    For me, the one deterrent I have to being disgusted with “Israeli Jews” is the existence of groups such as Peace Now, Btselem, etc.. But those groups are being demonized, even criminalized, by these piece of shit ghouls controlling the actions and narrative of all things Israel, both here in the states, and in Israel. And this is occuring, seemingly, with the support and agreement with the vast majority of Jews in Israel.
    And here in the states, who is pandered to by these bloodsuckers like Leiberman, Schumer, Harmon, etc? Were it not for the Jewish constituency, do you really think some pathetic piece of shit like Joe Lieberman would hold a position? Do you think Israel could get away with the atrocities it does? It is Jews that are greasing the skids that Israel’s despicable practices and atrocities ride upon.
    Me, I’m getting fed up. Its not “Israelis” that put scum like Lieberman in office. Its not “Israelis” that provide the podium and the audience for these monsters like Dershowitz. Its not “Israelis” that have so corrupted our media to the point that Israel gets a free pass for murdering and maiming American citizens.
    Jews are doing these things, Paul. And they are doing it not because they are Americans, not because they are “Israelis”, but because they are “Jews”. I’m supposed to ignore this? Do the Jews ignore that the Palestinians are Muslims?
    “regarding Marcus, Nadine, and others, the current nonstop propaganda, etc… I think both you and I sometimes tend to take them to seriously. Let them write their untenable
    defense-speeches for Netanyahu. The readers and
    commenters see it for what it is, and it will not go on forever…”
    Paul; Nadine and Marcus are a symptom, not an end.

    Reply

  31. Paul Norheim says:

    P.S. to POA:
    regarding Marcus, Nadine, and others, the current nonstop
    propaganda, etc… I think both you and I sometimes tend to
    take them to seriously. Let them write their untenable
    defense-speeches for Netanyahu. The readers and
    commenters see it for what it is, and it will not go on
    forever…

    Reply

  32. Paul Norheim says:

    Ok POA, let me try to comment on some of your
    questions/comments.
    “So I’m a bit curious, Paul. Have you ever exposed yourself
    to the vitrol used by the likes of Mark Levin, Sean Hannity,
    or Michael Savage in their defense of all things Israel?”
    —–I’ve seen/heard Hannity and seen and heard and
    read plenty of others, and yes, their propaganda usually
    makes me speechless.
    “How about Helen Thomas getting sidelined while one of
    our statesmen gets his wrist slapped and keeps his job for
    calling Muslims “ragheads”?”
    —–You can read my response on the Helen Thomas
    tread – it’s complex, but yes I agree: That she get fired
    and not plenty of others who routinely deliver outrageous
    comments about Muslims is just – well, outrageous, and a
    sign of the well known strong bias in US media.
    “And with recent polls showing that over sixty five percent
    of Israeli Jews DECRYING Obama’s policies towards Israel,
    (…), one can only assume that Israeli Jews are becoming
    increasingly radicalized to the right.”
    ——-Yes.
    “Tell me Paul, what kind of society stands by, and even
    participates, as their government commits attrocity after
    attrocity against the Palestinian people and their
    advocates?”
    ——–George W. Bush was not elected by a majority of
    Americans, but a majority supported the Iraq war and – as
    far as I remember – also torture. I can’t see any signs that
    the majority of Americans have huge trouble with the
    atrocities, crimes, the invasion of Iraq under false
    pretenses etc. etc. committed under Bush, or agree with
    you that Obama should prosecute Bush, Cheney,
    Addington, Yoo, Feith, etc. And Obama is in many ways a
    continuation of Bush. So one may return the question to
    you: “What kind of society stands by, and even
    participates, as their government commits attrocity after
    attrocity…” etc
    “And what of these groveling mewling subservient
    maggots currently infesting the halls of Congress in the
    United States? Are we to hiold these people up as bastions
    of humanity? Moral giants?”
    ——–I completely agree. That’s one of the major
    obstacles in the whole mess, preventing America from
    being less biased and put necessary pressure on Israel.
    “Paul, when does disgust with the Jews cease being “anti-
    semitism”, and become the truly moral position to
    assume? Its a terrifying question, bound to be widely and
    loudly opposed.”
    ——And it should indeed be loudly opposed. Disgust
    with the Jews? True moral position? Come on, POA! That’s
    the point where legitimate moral outrage turns into
    something sinister, into blindness, and forgets the original
    moral impulse.
    “As you will recall, I used to be quite convicted in my
    opinion that its “not about Jews”, but about the ACTIONS
    of the Israeli government. But as more and more Jews,
    both here and in Israel, sign on to, advocate, condone and
    justify the daily attrocities committed by Israel’s police,
    military, and leadership against the Palestinian people, it is
    much harder for me to make that argument with any
    conviction.”
    ———Yes, I recall that, POA, and appreciated your
    attempt to draw that basic distinction ( and was puzzled
    why you didn’t seem to care when others didn’t draw that
    distinction). As for the position of Jews in America, my
    impression is different: To me it looks like the younger
    generation of American Jews either are much more critical
    towards Israel, or lack the feeling of a connection to the
    country. I am a pessimist when it comes to the
    Israel/Palestine conflict (it has lasted for quite a while
    now), but I am actually a bit optimistic with regard to the
    development among American Jews in recent years. Some
    of them are just starting to find their voices, and I assume
    that there is a lot of frustration and confusion going on
    right now. Things may clarify a bit eventually.
    “So when do we get to talk frankly, Paul?”
    —–Oh, so you’re tempted to use the J-word? That may
    satisfy you personally, like cursing in a church – but who
    will it gain? The Palestinians? In my view it is not only
    morally wrong, but also tactically and intellectually stupid.
    “And Paul, heres another portion of your comment that
    bears examination (…). You insert “Arabs”, where a truly
    relevent insertion would have been “Iranians, because in
    inserting the latter, you would be inserting a term parralel
    in meaning to “Israelis”.”
    ———-Yes, I admit that the parallel is asymmetrical.
    But as you know, although Carroll now spoke about the
    Israelis, she’s had plenty to say before about the Jews. So I
    read her statement in the context of all the comments I’ve
    read from her. Thus my comment that you quoted: “”When
    Carroll gets obsessed with the Jews or the Israelis, she is
    just as bigoted as Marcus…”"
    “Are all the commenters here on this thread “obsessed
    with the Jews or Israelis”.”
    ——-No, but if you look at the big picture, many of
    them are. It is THE obsession at TWN.
    “Using your yardstick, could we not make the claim,
    considering your longstanding and quite vocal oppopsition
    to Carroll’s comments, that you are “obsessed with
    Carroll”?”
    ———I may be the one to blame, if you’ve got that
    impression. Like many others, I tend to comment more
    when I disagree than when I agree with someone. For the
    record: I’ve read countless of comments from Carroll that I
    agree with, and enjoy the clarity, the mixture of analytical
    skills, facts, and a clear position in many of her
    comments.
    But as you also know from my three years commenting
    here, I tend to comment once in a while when I see what I
    regard as extreme bigotry – against the Arabs,
    Palestinians, and Muslims, or against the Jews. And in this
    last case: against the Israelis en bloc – in a comment that
    in my view did not make any sense (despite “the bit of
    truth”).
    You and others, POA, may think that this is a self serving
    attempt to portrait myself as some moral example, better
    then the rest of you. I don’t think that’s correct, but in any
    case I don’t give a damn what you think. To me this is
    about sticking to one of the few convictions I actually still
    have in this complicated and confusing world; principles I
    expressed in one of the first discussions I had here. That’s
    BTW also one of the reasons why I was not an anti-
    American from 2000-2008 – the reasons for being so
    were especially good after a majority of Americans re-
    elected that scumbag in 2004 – according to your line of
    thinking above.
    But nope, I’m not an anti-American—or anti-Russian,
    anti-Sri Lankan, anti-Iranian or anti Israeli for that sake.
    And our neighbors, the Swedes? The Danes? Screw them!
    Bastards! Losers! They just want to steal our women!

    Reply

  33. PissedOffAmerican says:

    And Paul, heres another portion of your comment that bears examination;
    “As I’m sure you noticed, I just quoted Carroll, and inserted “Arabs” instead of “Israelis”"
    Although you assert that it is your insertion of “Arabs” in the sentence that is relevent, it is in the following sentence that your “insertions” are actually relevent to the topic. You state;
    “When Carroll gets obsessed with the Jews or the Israelis, she is just as bigoted as Marcus…”
    In the first sentence, you try to draw a parrallel “meaning” between the citation of an ethnic or racial group, and a group defined by nationality. You insert “Arabs”, where a truly relevent insertion would have been “Iranians, because in inserting the latter, you would be inserting a term parralel in meaning to “Israelis”. But if you inserted “Iranians”, you could not give credence to your assertions of bigotry. By choice, you manipulated the debate in a manner designed to buttress your accusations, instead of in a manner designed tyo honestly present your argument.
    And in the second sentence quoted, you insert two words into the debate that do little to give fairness to your comment. it is YOU that inserts the word “Jews”, at least rhetorically, in Carroll’s comment that;
    “Israelis have two goals….to steal everything they can and to kill non jews….especially women and children. They have to leave some adults alive so they keep claiming they are fighting terriers for their existance”
    And the second word you insert is “obssession”. Paul, are not a huge number of issues discussed on this blog topics that involve Israel in one way or another? Is not this thread a thread about one of Israel’s abominable, racist, and criminal actions? Are all the commenters here on this thread “obsessed with the Jews or Israelis”. Using your yardstick, could we not make the claim, considering your longstanding and quite vocal oppopsition to Carroll’s comments, that you are “obsessed with Carroll”?
    Was Carroll’s comment insensitive, over emotional, and over the top??? Yeah, probly’ so. But so what? Who gives a fuck at this point?
    With American statesmen calling Muslims “ragheads”, and maggots like Biden saying “so what” when an American is executed by IDF nazis, and this warmongering bitch Hillary Clinton ignoring the occassions that Israeli fascist storm troopers shoot American citizens in the head with tear gas cannisters, and respected and elderly journalists get thrown out with the bathwater fior daring to make an insensitive remark about murderers, racists, and land theives, Carroll’s remarks bear all this indignation on your part?
    Well, the “Israelis”, are stealing land, murdering women, children, and non jews, and claiming terrorism where none exists, such as in the case of this flotilla. So really, despite the overwrought emotionalism in Carroll’s comment, theres a bit of truth to it, isn’t there? Until YOU start inserting the words “Jews” into the comment. Theres the rub.

    Reply

  34. Hasbarassassin says:
  35. Paul Norheim says:

    POA, glad to see you here again. Right now I’m busy helping my
    brother to paint his large house. I’ll write a reply later.

    Reply

  36. DonS says:

    “And what of these groveling mewling subservient maggots currently infesting the halls of Congress in the United States? Are we to hold these people up as bastions of humanity? Moral giants?” (POA)
    This part of the equation bothers me more than most. Things have become so polarized, with the flotilla attack being the latest example, that it is always us (US) against the world when it comes to Israel. I’m will to blame/credit the very effective AIPAC machine for the lock that Israel has on Congress, but that doesn’t answer the question of when it will be broken. Even with ‘terrorism’ being a priority issue, the link between blind support of Israel and terrorism doesn’t seem to matter, even seems to ratchet up Congressional bravado and “bring em on” attitude.
    There is something so pathetic about Congressional ignorance when it comes to Israel, and what most pathetic is that it comes from the same well of American arrogance that fuels all other forms of the exceptionalist fixation. Only the pathetos in Congress see it as a virtue, not a sign of their stupidity, shallowness, and robotic behavior.

    Reply

  37. PissedOffAmerican says:

    Further, Paul, I have never known any Muslims that defend or condone the actions of Muslim terrorists. And I have known a few Muslims.
    But I have known Jews that defend and condone Israel’s attrocities committed against the Palestinians.

    Reply

  38. PissedOffAmerican says:

    “Sorry, Carroll, but these disgusting and imbecile accusations, as well as other outrageous claims in some of your recent posts, is pure, unmitigated anti-Semitism of the worst sort – regardless of your reference to the “Israelis” instead of the “Jews”.”
    So I’m a bit curious, Paul. Have you ever exposed yourself to the vitrol used by the likes of Mark Levin, Sean Hannity, or Michael Savage in their defense of all things Israel?
    How about Helen Thomas getting sidelined while one of our statesmen gets his wrist slapped and keeps his job for calling Muslims “ragheads”?
    And with recent polls showing that over sixty five percent of Israeli Jews DECRYING Obama’s policies towards Israel, (despite the fact he is giving the facist murderous racists everything they ask for), one can only assume that Israeli Jews are becoming increasingly radicalized to the right. Tell me Paul, what kind of society stands by, and even participates, as their government commits attrocity after attrocity against the Palestinian people and their advocates?
    And what of these groveling mewling subservient maggots currently infesting the halls of Congress in the United States? Are we to hiold these people up as bastions of humanity? Moral giants?
    Paul, when does disgust with the Jews cease being “anti-semitism”, and become the truly moral position to assume? Its a terrifying question, bound to be widely and loudly opposed. But it needs to be asked, because on their current course, the Jewish majority in Israel is becoming increasingly racist, increasingly detestable, and increasingly anathema to our own best interests and ideals. Its becoming harder and harder to draw a defined line between criticism of “Jews” and criticism of “Israelis”. Particularly when assholes like Marcus, or Hagee, or Dershowitz, or Huckabee, etc, defend the Israeli’s actions with arguments based in Jewish theology.
    As you will recall, I used to be quite convicted in my opinion that its “not about Jews”, but about the ACTIONS of the Israeli government. But as more and more Jews, both here and in Israel, sign on to, advocate, condone and justify the daily attrocities committed by Israel’s police, military, and leadership against the Palestinian people, it is much harder for me to make that argument with any conviction. Why does an American condone and defend Israel’s shooting of an American citizen in the head? Well, because, more often than not, that American, defending an Israeli attrocity, is a Jew. Why does a United States Congressman ignore Israeli attrocities, vote to send billions of dollars to a country that spits in our face and murders/maims our citizens with increasing regularity? Well, because, more often than not, that American Congressman, defending an Israeli attrocity, is a Jew.
    So when do we get to talk frankly, Paul? How many Jews have to climb on board with the abominable and inhumane policies of Israel before we are finally on strong moral ground for criticizing JEWS instead of ISRAELIS? I’m not there yet, but I’m getting there. When the likes of Dershowitz, or Marcus, or Nadine, or Lieberman, or Schumer, become the undeniable Jewish majority, than color me “anti-semitic”.

    Reply

  39. PissedOffAmericans says:

    “Israel should rename two ships The Neda and the Lt.Daniel Lea (one of the commandoes injured in that raid) and sink the Iranian warships now headed for Israel but of course rescue the Iranian “volunteer” marines on board”
    How about we name a coupla American carriers after Tristan Anderson and Emily Henochowicz, and we sink the next fuckin’ nazi scow that the Israeli fascists send out to murder humantarians on the high seas?
    “Just how stupid are the arab masses ?”
    Apparently not near as stupid as the Israeli massses, judging from global reaction to their latest attrocity.
    And BTW, it is Israel and the United States that are committed to “violent confrontation”. But of course, pointing that out to you and your ilk is an exercise in futility, as your arguments are driven by agenda rather than facts.

    Reply

  40. Marcus says:

    John Z; “Fadi for President” ?
    Surely you meant to say: ” Fadi for President for Life” and then it will be Fadi`s son`s turn.
    Israel should rename two ships The Neda and the Lt.Daniel Lea (one of the commandoes injured in that raid) and sink the Iranian warships now headed for Israel but of course rescue the Iranian “volunteer” marines on board.
    Just how stupid are the arab masses ?(this would be very useful info.when assessing the threat posed by Islamic fundamentalism)
    When Abu Mazen talks about a peace treaty but actually means a temporary truce ,does the arab “street” understand this ?,is it only the useful idiots in the west who don`t get it ?
    When Iran claims that the marines on their new flottila are “volunteers” does that actually fool the arab street ?
    When Iran claim`s not to want a nuclear weapons arsenal (at this time, and that nukes weapons are against Islamic priciples) does any arab believe that they don`t want one as soon as possible ????????
    The western intel,agencies need to know ,are these people stupid, or are they simply ignorant , or are they,as I belive, commited to a violent confrontation with Israel and the West, no matter what the facts of any given situation.

    Reply

  41. Neo Controll says:

    “Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center”
    Another euphemism for Israeli white wash, goon squad justification and propaganda proliferation center.
    Brought to you by your local neocons. The name you can trust is lies.
    –NCHQ

    Reply

  42. nadine says:

    “a familiar clutch of
    neo-conservative hawks is going on the offensive against what
    they see as the flotilla’s chief defender, Turkey.”
    “what they see as”? Does any rational person (perhaps I should say, rational persons not emotionally committed to finding Israel always in the wrong) doubt that Erdogan gave semi-official sanction to the flotilla and staffed it with IHH jihadists? His reaction afterwards leaves little doubt that he regarded IHH as his own agents, and was outraged that even a handful of them should be killed by Israelis (the 10s of thousands Uzbeks getting killed by Kyrgyz excites no outrage in him).
    The officers of the Mavi Marmara have given statements about the jihadists preparations for violence, which the officers say they tried to prevent but could not: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkXDev2wXVA
    “According to the clip, released by the Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center, the ship’s captain Mehmut Tuval had attempted to prevent a violent altercation by disposing of metal bars and chains IHH activists had cut ahead of the IDF takeover.
    Mehmut said that “once we see that the boats [were] around us

    Reply

  43. Paul Norheim says:

    Jim Lobe on the neocons attacking Turkey:
    “U.S. Neo-Conservatives Lead Charge Against Turkey
    By Jim Lobe*
    WASHINGTON, Jun 9, 2010 (IPS) – As the right-wing leadership
    of the organised U.S. Jewish community defends Israel against
    international condemnation for its deadly seizure of a flotilla
    bearing humanitarian supplies for Gaza, a familiar clutch of
    neo-conservative hawks is going on the offensive against what
    they see as the flotilla’s chief defender, Turkey.
    Outraged by Prime Minister Recep Tayyip’s Erdogan’s repeated
    denunciations of the May 31 Israeli raid, as well as his co-
    sponsorship with Brazil of an agreement with Iran designed to
    promote renewed negotiations with the West on Tehran’s
    nuclear programme, some neo-conservatives are even
    demanding that the U.S. try to expel Ankara from NATO as one
    among of several suggested actions aimed at punishing
    Erdogan’s AKP (Justice and Development Party) government.
    “Turkey, as a member of NATO, is privy to intelligence
    information having to do with terrorism and with Iran,” noted
    the latest report by the Jewish Institute for National Security
    Affairs (JINSA), a hard-line neo-conservative group that
    promotes U.S.-Israeli military ties and has historically cultivated
    close ties to Turkey’s military, as well.
    “If Turkey finds its best friends to be Iran, Hamas, Syria and
    Brazil (look for Venezuela in the future) the security of that
    information (and Western technology in weapons in Turkey’s
    arsenal) is suspect. The United States should seriously consider
    suspending military cooperation with Turkey as a prelude to
    removing it from the organisation,” suggested the group.
    Its board of advisers includes many prominent champions of the
    2003 Iraq invasion, including former Defence Policy Board
    chairman Richard Perle, former Central Intelligence Agency (CIA)
    director James Woolsey, and former U.N. Amb. John Bolton.”
    More here:
    http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=51771
    http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=51771

    Reply

  44. Paul Norheim says:

    Posted by Carroll, Jun 14 2010, 11:31PM – Link
    “…your narcissism and attention seeking moral posturing…You’re
    a silly man..you’re boring…you are the most useless type of all
    humans….lacking the character to make judgements about or
    take a stand on right and wrong….like a back yard bitch…”
    I’m disappointed, Carroll. Is this the best you can come up with?
    Most useless type of all humans? Why restrict yourself?
    Are you sure I don’t enjoy stealing and killing women, children
    and old people as well, just like them Jews…sorry, I meant the
    Israelis? Why is it that every time someone addresses an anti-
    Semitic comment, the commenter immediately reacts with ad
    hominem attacks?

    Reply

  45. John Zaggata says:

    Fadi for President.
    Who is with me?

    Reply

  46. nadine says:

    “So what? The Palestinians are already within spitting distance of Jerusalem, sling-shot distance from BG airport and sniper range to Tel Aviv.” (Dan Kervick)
    So what? So the Palestinians within spitting distance of Jerusalem, or the Palestinians already inside Jerusalem, do not currently have the power to wave “Come on down!” to Iranian Revolutionary Guards bearing long-range missiles.
    This power is what you demand Israel hand over to them when you demand that Israel hand over the land, with no treaty, no end of conflict, no Jordan valley, no conditions. At this point, the actual aspirations of the Palestinians becomes an important point in real reality, as opposed to “realist” reality.
    The actual aspirations of Hamas (who would take over the West Bank if the IDF withdrew) and the majority of Fatah, as described by Farouq Qadumi and Abu Ghaneim, is to destroy Israel and reclaim Palestine from the river to the sea.
    Which means that if given the West Bank, they would just use it to attack Israel from, like Hizbullah has used Lebanon and Hamas has used Gaza. After those two examples, why should anybody expect a different outcome in the West Bank?
    Since the land of the West Bank is much closer to the Jewish population centers, their attacks would cause higher casualties and would trigger a war that would make the previous Israeli operations look like a children’s picnic. So in real reality, your demands are nonsensical and anti-peace.
    But you will keep demanding them, because your only moral imperative is to always assume that Jews must hate Muslims exactly the same way that Muslims hate Jews. Not only can’t you see a difference, there isn’t allowed to be a difference. It’s a principle with you.

    Reply

  47. Carroll says:

    Time to sober up, Israel
    We thought we can fool the world all the time, but we were wrong
    Eitan Haber Published: 06.13.10, 11:01 / Israel Opinion
    We used to think (and many of us still do) that

    Reply

  48. Carroll says:

    Posted by Paul Norheim, Jun 14 2010, 3:34PM – Link
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Oh yada,yada,yada…
    I have told you what I think of your narcissism and attention seeking moral posturing before so I won’t waste the time repeating all of it. You aren’t the TWN guru, no one admires you, you’re not the voice of intelligence or morality or the moderation judge..yes I know that hurts but there it is.
    You’re a silly man who wants attention and wants to be ‘looked up to’..on a blog of all places, how sad is that? So when you aren’t getting the attention you crave you seize on something like someones anti semitism, usually mine, that you think will get you attention and praise from someone….in this case nadine…and that is reeealllly sad!
    As I illustrated before you are among those who spend more time commenting on other posters than anything else.
    Miss Manners is on vacation till the child murdering Israelis are impounded…so I shall keep dropping my verbal bombs and suggest you shut the fuck up…you’re boring anyway.
    Or you could get a real life and spare us all your literary tomes and flights of fancy that do nothing but illustrate your pathetic narcissism and indifference to real life and death happenings.
    Now run to your bookshelf and see what you can find that is appropriately emotionless and ‘literario’ to absolve “your side” on the latest dead child in Gaza.
    Hate to be too mean,..well not really, LOL… but you are the most useless type of all humans…..lacking the character to make judgements about or take a stand on right and wrong….like a back yard bitch you spend your time gossiping about and judging other anonymous people that aren’t even interested in your opinion.

    Reply

  49. Marcus says:

    Fadi,
    When I said arabs don`t GET democracy,I should have been more precise:
    Many Muslim Arabs don`t GET democracy,the casual observer may think that the Magority don`t. .It`s got to do with religous laws ,tribal customs, lack of diversity and all that.
    just political theater,to diguise the palestinian ambitions, I read the transcript of his speech the other day,he goes on and on about how reasonable and open he is and that on the question of guaranting Israel`s security he says sure, absolutly, no problem we will give the Israel EVERYTHING they require on this subject…………..FOR TEN OR TWENTY YEARS.
    peace offerings,little hopeful noises, noises, freely entered into by free men of good- will to extending a hand of friendship in Brotherly Love–HMM I don`t think so.that`s the first time I`ve seen that word on these threads
    Abu mazen isn`t even free,he is no kind of peace partner, all he can offer is 10 years of relative quiet,.,., Not very hopeful for the israelis..eh ?
    the democratic rule of law demands clarity, it is not supposed to be bent by family honor,tribe (,tradition ,religon or expiedancy, if it`s war or peace . The only clear authentic arab voices I`ve heard ,have waged war against Israel,
    the.arabs need to seize control of their governments,and demand free and fair elections across the entire muslim world. that`s the clear EQUALLY authentic voices everyone wants to hear.
    Iraq has no funtioning government,so where is it exactly that so many muslim arabs GET democracy ?
    Fadi, you said ” Abu Mazen has made it clear that Hamas,as well as other militant factions are encourged to enter parlimentary elections ”
    Again,that doesn`t cut the mustard. In a democracy militant groups must lay down their weapons and mean it…(NOT like in Afghanistan,where the warlords and drug dealers infiltrate the gov.in order to advance their own nefarious goals) they must mean what they say and say what they mean,abbas has not demanded that the murderous bunch behind the coup d`etat be arrested,but rather that they be part of a unity government, not to- democratic. A democracy will prosecute anyone,and usally does,we like eating our “great” leaders for breakfast,you don`t see that very much in un-democratic countries, this much I know.
    abu mazen and yasse)Arrafat have only ever offered a temporary truce,yes ? yet they agree to enter “peace” talks, they should speak the truth, yes? and agree to enter temporary truce talks.Then the world would better understand Israel`s perdicament.
    Assad conceals a secret nuke plant,then says it never happened.
    Iran SWEARS that they have nothing to hide,then out pops Qum. OOPS !
    Do you expect Israel to trust any of it ?

    Reply

  50. larry birnbaum says:

    “…the bearers of that maleficent scourge.”
    Nice image — kind of reminiscent of rats bearing the plague. Not exactly original in this context of course.

    Reply

  51. nadine says:

    Dan Kervick, How powerful is Hamas in Palestinian society, really? Wouldn’t we need another election to find that out? The Palestinians have no intention of holding any.

    Reply

  52. DonS says:

    “I fail to understand why any of you complain against the anti-Arab/anti-Muslim rhetorics of Wig, Nadine, and Marcus,while none of you protests against the cretins on your side ”
    Sides? Which ‘side’ are you on Paul? The middle side ; )
    Anyway, I’m not the judge. And I can’t tell what is in a person’s heart. I didn’t agree with everything POA said either, but I didn’t call him out. See, I’m not pure either. It is not my concern to take Carroll’s inventory; it seems to me if you and others are convinced she is ‘Anti-Semitic” (by interpretation of words) that does harm to promoting rational acceptance of the point of view I favor. And if that’s also the case, I’m not going to change it, and I prefer not to call attention to it. Much in a similar way that the Israel Firsters can arguably be seen as being agents of anti-Semitism themselves in personifying an exceptionalist framework.
    But I hate Zionist propaganda and the impact on US foreign policy, and Jews around the world. I will sometimes push back on that. Just so happens the Firsters among the commenters here are the bearers of that maleficent scourge, no matter they might be just lovely people in all other respects, and treat their dogs well.
    Anyway, it seems like Carroll gets under your skin, and I agree there is an edge there. That’s life.

    Reply

  53. Cee says:

    http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2010/06/15/helen-thomas-and-the-right-of-return/
    Israel has been in an uproar about the comments made by Helen Thomas. The reality is Israel has been doing exactly what was inferred in those comments

    Reply

  54. ... says:

    paul, you make a good point.. however i’ve never seen uppity wigwag ever taking nadine, or marcus to task either…none of it is right, but in the world of ”anti-semite is the catchphrase that always trumps”, we must find an opposite line to create more balance in the i/p dialogue..

    Reply

  55. ... says:

    anna – the idea is to prey on ignorance.. it will end at some point but it might take a while! in the meantime i think you’re 100% correct…

    Reply

  56. Anna says:

    this demand by Israel and the I lobby that Hamas and the Palestinians must recognize israel’s “right to exist” is like demanding that Native Americans proclaim that the Europeans who killed them and put them on reservations had the “right to exist” This is absurd and another distraction away from the fact that Israel continues to occupy Palestinian lands and continue to expand illegal settlements in the West Bank and E Jerusalem.
    Another way to distract

    Reply

  57. Paul Norheim says:

    Ok, Don, so who wrote this:
    “Do the Arabs have anything they didn’t either beg or steal? Do
    they actually produce or invent anything besides thieves?”
    Did Marcus write that crap? Nope. But I wouldn’t be surprised if
    he did.
    And this one:
    “Arabs have two goals….to steal everything they can and to kill
    infidels….especially women and children. They have to leave
    some adults alive so they keep claiming they are fighting
    terriers for their caliphate .”
    Nadine? WigWag? Marcus? No, but again: Marcus could certainly
    have written something in that vein.
    As I’m sure you noticed, I just quoted Carroll, and inserted
    “Arabs” instead of “Israelis”. When Carroll gets obsessed with
    the Jews or the Israelis, she is just as bigoted as Marcus – worse
    than even Nadine or WigWag. And this contaminates all her
    views, also the sound and smart ones.
    I’m not saying that you should respond to every over-the-line
    statement. But I’m a bit surprised that you regard this kind of
    statements as a result of some noble principle, refusing to
    accept the “customary niceties”.
    POA often complains that neither WigWag nor Nadine protest
    when Marcus delivers his cretineous remarks about the Arabs.
    But I fail to understand why any of you complain against the
    anti-Arab/anti-Muslim rhetorics of Wig, Nadine, and Marcus,
    while none of you protests against the cretins on your side -
    like Carroll, consistently delivering his wild anti-Semitic
    remarks, year after year?

    Reply

  58. DonS says:

    Paul, I wasn’t writing in response to Carroll, you, or nadine. But since you asked, and I’m not sure what you mean by “adequate”, I went back and looked. It looks like Carroll who, on principle, refuses to accept the customary niceties that differentiate discussions of Israel. I’ll just say that if I responded to every over the line statement by the Israel Firsters on this blogs I’d be a busy boy. And I would further note the obscene way in which those Firsters often speak and infer about ME non-Israelis that, if turned around, one would be saying, “oh yeah, that’s anti-Semitic”. Oh yeah, they don’t have much nice to say about Europeans either, do they?

    Reply

  59. Dan Kervick says:

    Isn’t this a lot of water under the bridge? We might wish Hamas weren’t as powerful in Palestinian society as they are. But they are. If a Palestinian state is formed, that state is going to have a large political faction represented by Hamas – or some renamed successor party to Hamas. If a Palestinian state is *not* formed, Palestinian society is going to have a a large political faction represented by Hamas. Either way, Hamas is a political fact. Somehow we need to get the two halves of the Palestinian community put back together and functioning as one.

    Reply

  60. nadine says:

    Fadi,
    I certainly agree with you about the mistake of pushing elections in Gaza in 2006. Elections without a civil society lead to illiberal results. You won’t find me defending Condi Rice’s tenure as SoS. That said, you are skipping over the Hamas coup of 2007, or the low support (less than 40%) they have now, if you can trust the public opinion polls coming out of Gaza.
    As for Abu Mazen, who is now entering the 66th month of a 48 month term, what exactly do you want the Americans or Israelis to do? Already the IDF is keeping him in power by keeping Hamas forces down in the West Bank so they can’t try another coup there. What more could be done for him? He was never a strong leader.
    Bibi seems to be concentrating on helping PM Fayyad create prosperity in the West Bank (the West Bank GDP grew by 8% last year). What more could Abu Mazen do, even if he gets support? He can’t agree to a deal. As you know, Farouq Qaddami is a hardliner who doesn’t accept the existence of Israel, and the Fatah Central Committee is stuffed with hardliners.
    So it seems to me that this is more of same: reasons that the Palestinians need to be given this and given that, without ever agreeing to anything. This is a great motivation for them to stay perpetually weak and divided.

    Reply

  61. Fadi Elsalameen says:

    Marcus:
    1- I think your statement about Arab culture not “Get[ing]
    democracy” speaks volumes of what you know about Arabs and
    Arab cultures.
    2- I am not a reporter
    3- The United States insisted Hamas enters elections, and they
    won. Thats why we have this blunder. In fact, months before the
    elections, I warned against allowing Hamas to enter elections
    because I said they will win the majority, and then they will be
    asked to form a government… This is exactly what happened.
    Here is my article before Hamas won the elections:
    This is a crucial time for President Mahmud Abbas. Unlike any
    other Palestinian official before him, he has held back on putting
    forward any final status issues, making security and reforms his
    top priority.
    Abu Mazen so far has ignored apparent splits within his
    movement, Fatah, and focused on bringing together the
    Palestinian factions, and beyond that, integrating them within
    the political system. Soon, Abu Mazen plans to use a law passed
    by Palestinian legislators last month to forcibly retire about
    1,000 members of the security forces who are over the age of
    60, opening the doors for a new generation to take charge, and
    putting an end to corruption.
    This will be translated into two lessons depending on the
    response Abu Mazen receives from the Israelis, and the
    Americans. First, resign, and never do this again. Should the
    Israelis keep on ignoring Abu Mazin, undermining his policies,
    and accusing him of not doing enough, and at the same time,
    continue to plan settlements advancements and building the
    separation wall; anyone can bet that we are heading towards a
    new wave of violence. If Congress retracts its support for Abu
    Mazen, especially by placing harsh restrictions than even Arafat’s
    era, on the aid promised to the Palestinian Authority, Abu
    Mazen?s authority will not only be undermined, but his ability to
    strengthen himself against these rifts will be shattered.
    Abu Mazen has yet to meet with the new head of Fatah, Farouq
    Qadoumi. This is a serious split within Fatah. Abu Mazen has
    made it clear that Hamas, as well as other militant factions are
    encouraged to enter the race for parliamentary elections,
    sparking even more anger among Fatah for what seems to be an
    inevitable weakening of his own party.
    Hamas has been so far the choice in municipality elections, and
    most indications point towards Hamas as the leading winner in
    the upcoming parliamentary elections. Should this happen, with
    only a couple of Palestinian cities under Palestinian control, let
    alone the rest of the issues remaining the same, Abu Mazen will
    be even weaker, and the prospect of him being able to fulfill his
    goal as a transition figure will greatly diminish. There is a clear
    chance for hope; we have to pay attention to it. It is Abu Mazen.
    The United States, as well as Israel must give Abu Mazen the
    chance to deliver. Having Mofaz in Washington, DC accusing him
    of not doing enough will not help, but will reiterate to the
    Palestinians that Israelis are still using the same old language,
    and change is far from coming. Abu Mazen has been working on
    the Palestinian grounds relentlessly to set up the stage for the
    next period.
    The Americans, and the Israelis guaranteeing Abu Mazen the
    required support to go back home and continue his work is just
    as essential for the next stage. This should be Abu Mazen?s
    second lesson, a lesson of encouragement rather than that of
    empty accusations and promises. Making Abu Mazen?s
    upcoming visit to Washington a great success is, a good start.

    Reply

  62. Paul Norheim says:

    “The attempt to relabel anti-Semitism as an affliction of the left
    because it’s opposite, the thrall in which Israel is held by the right
    wing, corresponds to Israeli design. It is another attempt to stifle
    criticism of Israeli behavior.”
    I agree, Don, but would you characterize the statement by Carroll
    that I quoted above as adequate, or by any measure relevant
    “criticism of Israeli behavior”?

    Reply

  63. DonS says:

    The attempt to relabel anti-Semitism as an affliction of the left because it’s opposite, the thrall in which Israel is held by the right wing, corresponds to Israeli design. It is another attempt to stifle criticism of Israeli behavior. Israeli propaganda, and it’s AIPAC mouthpiece requires a compliant and enthusiastic audience, and it requires a designated boogeyman and adversary. One cannot simply be critical of Israeli behavior, the behavior of a secular state; a negative critique is painted as anti-Semitic.
    Now the actual distinction between and Israeli and a Jew may well be a distinction without a difference for the average American who, in fact probably doesn’t care about the difference. But the right wing, both Israeli and American, uses that vagueness as a wedge to promote the idea of anti-Semitism.
    Regardless of Israel Firsters claim to be factual in their critiques — and they have spoon fed barrels of ‘facts’ at their disposal — they underlying force of their propaganda, as in all propaganda, lies in emotional manipulation. The term ‘anti-Semitism’ with all its baggage, remains the single most powerful emotional tool in the right wing Zionist propaganda arsenal.

    Reply

  64. Paul Norheim says:

    Nadine,
    I’ve been commenting here for almost three years now. What I
    have noticed, is that Steve once in a while shouts out when
    someone distorts his own views, or if the mutual ad hominem
    attacks and off topic rants on the threads get too wild.
    Sometimes he threatens to close the comment sections, not
    because of extremist views, but due to ad hominem comments
    and off topic rants.
    But when it comes to political or moral issues, Steve is an
    extremely liberal and tolerant editor, who, generally speaking,
    neither deletes comments nor protests when people express
    outrageous political views – rightwing or leftwing – in their
    posts. I’m sure he strongly disagrees with a lot of views
    expressed here, but he has chosen to let people express and
    discuss these views freely, instead of using his editorial powers
    to delete the comments or ban the commenters.
    If he had been less politically or morally tolerant, I have no
    doubt that both you and Carroll would have noticed it.

    Reply

  65. nadine says:

    Paul, thanks for that (which should have come from Steve Clemons, but never does).
    BTW I think that Wigwag & I, for the most part, discuss facts about the Palestinians, and don’t “demonize” them. I know I generally talk about the Palestinian leadership, and I often quote them directly or cite previous decisions. When I talk about the Palestinian people, I cite opinion polls. You can correct our facts anytime you like, if you can bring yourself to discuss the facts laid out in the polls.

    Reply

  66. Paul Norheim says:

    “Israelis have two goals….to steal everything they can and to kill
    non jews….especially women and children. They have to leave
    some adults alive so they keep claiming they are fighting
    terriers for their existence.” (Carroll)
    Sorry, Carroll, but these disgusting and imbecile accusations, as
    well as other outrageous claims in some of your recent posts, is
    pure, unmitigated anti-Semitism of the worst sort – regardless
    of your reference to the “Israelis” instead of the “Jews”. It’s
    depressing to see someone like you, with such knowledge and
    analytical skills, allowing yourself to deliver such hate-filled
    nonsense whenever you get obsessed with this issue.
    Your demonization of the Israelis is not an inch better than
    Marcus’ or Nadine’s or WigWag’s demonization of the Arabs or
    the Muslims.
    Every time someone criticizes Israel, Netanyahu and his
    supporters shout “Anti-Semitism!” And your stupid hate posts,
    incessantly demonizing the Israelis en bloc, seem designed to
    prove that Netanyahu is correct.
    So could you please shut the fuck up and concentrate on
    something else for a couple of weeks?

    Reply

  67. Cee says:

    There Is a Method to Israel’s Madness
    A new Middle East is being born – and there seems to be only one place for Israel: isolation. With that comes an inevitable, somewhat crazed approach to diplomacy.
    June 10, 2010
    Why would Israel, in a deliberate and methodical operation planned over a week in advance – according to statements by senior Israeli military commanders made in Hebrew-language media days before the attack – target an unarmed ship on a humanitarian mission flying the flag of Comoros? (Unlike Turkey, Comoros is a party of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court, which has jurisdiction over war crimes committed on vessels of member states.)
    Why would Israeli commandos shoot nine unarmed activists dead with nine millimeter bullets at close range, between the eyes, in the top of the head, in the back of the head, in the chest, in the back, and in the legs – including an American citizen? (The final death toll may be 15, as six activists are still missing; Israeli army radio reported 16 dead early last Monday when the attack took place on the Mavi Marmara, a part of the Free Gaza flotilla.)
    How could Israel think it would get away with it by censoring video and photos – and then getting away with it all over again by refusing an international, independent commission to investigate the incident and subsequent cover-up?
    Why, geopolitically, would Israel declare war on the de facto international community – from Muslim nations to North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) member-countries to global public opinion?
    Is this merely a case of a “dysfunctional government”, as Bradley Burston wrote in the Israeli newspaper Ha’aretz? And strategically speaking, is there any method behind the madness? Or is the method actually the madness?
    Be afraid, be very afraid
    There may be a very simple answer to all these questions: fear.
    Let’s survey Israel’s possible motivations. A key Israeli motive to attack the humanitarian flotilla was to send a “signal” to Turkey about the Brazil and Turkey-mediated Iran nuclear fuel-swap deal – as its success pre-empted Israel’s pleas for a military strike on Tehran’s nuclear facilities. Israel wants conflict between Washington and Tehran – and that means using the Israel lobby in Washington to sabotage US President Barack Obama’s half-hearted attempts at finding any sort of agreement with Tehran over its uranium-enrichment program.
    Israel wants a weak Turkey – out of the loop both in the Middle East and the European Union (EU). Turkey is an emerging, key regional power now with good, stable relations with its neighbors. Turkey is key for the US: 70% of all supplies for US troops in Iraq go through the Incirlik base in Turkey. Turkey has troops fighting the US war in Afghanistan. Not to mention that Turkey – in Obama’s own terms – represents the key bridge between the West and the Muslim world.
    The White House gave a wimpy response, “The United States deeply regrets the loss of life and injuries sustained and is currently working to understand the circumstances surrounding this tragedy.” This was also Washington’s signal to Turkey that the Brazil-Turkey mediation on the Iran nuclear fuel swap deal was not exactly welcome.
    Iran agreed last month with the leaders of Brazil and Turkey to send most of its low-enriched uranium to Turkey to be held in escrow pending delivery of fuel rods for the Tehran Research Reactor.
    As much as Israel wants Turkey immersed in deep trouble with both Syria and Greece, and fighting a nasty internal Kurdish problem, Ankara is not exactly trembling because of Israel’s “message”. In terms of conventional military strength, Turkey is ahead of Israel itself; and moreover it is a very important US NATO ally.
    Another key Israeli motive was to undermine and in fact abort any possibility of meaningful peaceful negotiations with the Palestinians and the Syrians – and to cut Turkey from the loop. Turkey is very much involved in the Palestinian tragedy. It is trying hard to breach the gap between Fatah and Hamas. A key Israeli aim appears to be to sabotage any Turkish-led peace initiative to solve the Palestinian problem that includes the essential provision of a fully denuclearized Middle East – anathema to (undeclared) nuclear power Israel.
    To round it all up, there is the crucial element of fear itself. As the once-fabled Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) have struggled in battles with Hezbollah in Lebanon in 2006 and Hamas in Gaza in 2008, they have had to come to grips with the fact that their tanks are now vulnerable to Russian-made rocket-propelled grenades; their ships are now vulnerable to Hezbollah’s made in China missiles; and their planes will soon be vulnerable to Russian S-300 surface-to-air missiles.
    The new axis in town
    Iraqi Kurdistan is now virtually independent – according to Washington’s designs. Israel is robustly active everywhere in Iraqi Kurdistan. At the same time, the US actively supports the Iraq-based Kurdish Workers’ Party separatists in eastern Anatolia as well as Party of Free Life of Kurdistan (PJAK) separatists in Iran and Kurdish separatists in Syria. The Turkish military spent no time analyzing these crucial developments. Their conclusion: NATO is not exactly a panacea. We must focus on the Middle East.
    And this has led to the ultimate Israeli nightmare. The new key axis in the Middle East is Turkey, Iran and Syria. It used to be only Iran and Syria. Its historical legitimacy simply cannot be questioned, as it unites Shi’ite Iran, secular Syria and post-Ottoman Sunni Turkey.
    There are many fascinating side-effects of this cross-fertilization – such as more than a million Iraqis, many of them very well educated, finding a new life in Syria. But the most remarkable effect of this axis is that it has smashed the same old divide-and-rule logic Western colonialism has been imposing on the Middle East for more than a century. Turkey’s destiny may not be firmly attached to a fearful Europe that really does not want to embrace it after all; Turkey is to become once again a leader of the Muslim world.
    Life for the new axis won’t be easy. United States covert operations have tried to destabilize Syrian President Bashar al-Assad – to no avail. The same for US Central Intelligence Agency black ops in Sistan-Balochistan province in southeast Iran, as a means to destabilize the regime in Tehran. And the same for shady covert ops meant to bring a new military dictatorship in Turkey. But while US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton perfects her vociferousness, Assad, Hezbollah’s Hassan Nasrallah and Iranian President Mahmud Ahmadinejad got together this February in Syria and advanced their partnership.
    Crucially, Russia immediately stepped in to fill the US-provoked void. Russian President Dmitry Medvedev has been to Ankara and Damascus and has positioned himself in favor of full reconciliation between Fatah and Hamas and a fully functional Palestinian state side-by-side with Israel.
    Even US Central Command commander General David

    Reply

  68. Hasbarassassin says:

    Israeli Deputy FM: 75 al-Qaeda Mercenaries on Aid Ship
    Official Story Changes Yet Again
    by Jason Ditz, June 13, 2010
    Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon appeared on CNN

    Reply

  69. Hasbarassassin says:

    FROM THE B’TSELEM WEBSITE;
    Violence against Palestinians by Israeli security forces is not new; it has accompanied the occupation for many years. With the outbreak of the al-Aqsa intifada, however, a significant increase in the number of beatings and instances of abuse has occurred, in part because of increased friction between Palestinians and Israeli security forces. According to many testimonies given to B’Tselem and other human rights organizations, the security forces use violence, at times gross violence, against Palestinians unnecessarily and without justification.
    Most cases involve a “small dose” of ill-treatment such as a slap, a kick, an insult, a pointless delay at checkpoints, or degrading treatment. These acts have become an integral part of Palestinian life in the Occupied Territories. From time to time, however, cases of severe brutality occur.
    Many instances of abuse are not exposed because they have become the norm, and, for Palestinians, filing complaints is very time consuming. Furthermore, many Palestinians, primarily those who entered Israel without a permit, even refrain from filing complaints in cases of severe brutality because they fear that filing the complaint will only bring harm on themselves. Based on past experience, many do not file complaints because of lack of trust in the system

    Reply

  70. Hasbarassassin says:

    Israel’s moral decadence – Yariv Oppenheimer – 31/05/2010
    Even if the fleet to Gaza is irritating and outrageous, a sovereign state cannot treat every act of protest as a terror event that has to end in bloodshed
    Tonight Israel marked a new low point in the way it chose to contend with its domestic and external policy dissidents. A state that will not let its citizens protest, demonstrate and demand justice, a state that is busy composing loyalty tests for its citizens and passing laws to limit the freedom of expression, failed again in the real test and stopped a protest fleet of civilian ships at the cost of more than ten lives.
    The fleet that left Turkey a few days ago managed to anger even me. Hundreds of pro-Hamas activists challenged Israel blatantly and outrageously. Not a word of censure of the Hamas government, not a word about Gilad Shalit and not a word about the desire for peace. Nonetheless, a sovereign state cannot treat every show of protest, however outrageous and irritating it is, as a terror event that has to end in bloodshed. Instead of using the fleet to generate an internal Israeli discussion about the effectiveness of the policy of the siege of Gaza and its moral and political implications for Israel, all of the government spokesmen chose to focus on the handful of activists on the ships and grace them with the title of existential threats to Israel’s security. From here to unnecessary bloodshed the path was short.
    It is not the soldiers’ fault, nor the commanders’ nor the heads of the IDF’s. Israeli society as a whole is responsible for the grim results of the IDF takeover of the protest ships. The radicalization of Israeli society is yielding its fruit. The message to the soldiers and police is crystallizing. When Arabs are involved in an activity, the hand on the trigger is light. Determination boards the ship while sensitivity stays in the water.
    But have no fear, the domestic Israeli propaganda machine began to work and in just a few hours every Israeli will be recounting how Hamas helicopters took over a Jewish ship and shot illegal immigrants in all directions. With the use of our repression mechanisms and the encouragement of the IDF spokesman we will again dissociate from reality and the world and manufacture our own unique script in which we are the victims and the whole world is against us as usual. Will the outcome of tonight’s confrontation end with an official commission of inquiry? No chance.
    Israel justifies its brutal and violent image
    The price for the unfortunate results of the fleet will be paid primarily by the families of those who were killed at sea last night. Next in line to pay the price will be the residents of Israel who want peace and the end of the conflict with all their hearts, and who wish to stop the cycle of bloodshed and live in a saner country. We, the silent majority, watch with despair as Israel with its own actions justifies the brutal and violent image it acquired in the last years and gives our biggest enemies in Hamas and Iran a reason to rejoice.
    If the miserable naval clash had any winners, they are in Tehran, in the bunkers of Beirut and in the Hamas headquarters in Gaza. The Hamas government succeeded with the Israeli government’s active support to receive international recognition, to gain the support of the Arab world and to be seen as a hero standing up to Israel.
    The enemies of peace and the extremists on both sides can again find reasons to attack each other and deepen the hatred and hostility between Jews and Arabs in Israel and outside of it. Again the moderates on both sides are silenced and the voice of reason is drowned out by the voices of incitement and hatred. Without a loud voice of protest by a patriotic Israeli public calling on its leaders to change course, we will all find ourselves in a morally and politically decadent country, slowly sinking into the depths.

    Reply

  71. Hasbarassassin says:

    Why Didn

    Reply

  72. Hasbarassassin says:

    Tzali Reshef speech at demonstration;
    Good evening.
    We have gathered here tonight, thousands of worried Israeli citizens. We are Jews and Arabs, men and women, who have come here because we are worried, we are angry, we are furious, we are almost desperate. Almost, but we do not despair. We came to say:
    There is an alternative to the government of force, arrogance and stupidity.
    There is an alternative to the government of confrontation, siege and war.
    There is an alternative to the government of international isolation.
    There is an alternative to the government of Netanyahu and Barak.
    We must tell the government: the whole world is not against us. The whole world is against your policy. The policy of force and stupidity. The thousands who gathered here tonight are against the policy of disregarding the world, against the political isolation you are trying to impose on Israel.
    We believe there is another way. We believe there is a solution of peace, mutual respect, equality between people, Jews and Arabs, a two-state solution, a solution in Jerusalem, the capital of two states for two peoples.
    And on the way to the solution there is no choice but to confront the domestic enemies of peace. These enemies work every day to avert it. The first among them are the settlers, who do everything to thwart a solution. The settlements must not only be frozen, the settlements must be evacuated immediately, now. There is no solution without evacuating Beit-El. And we must say this out loud. We are not talking about the illegal outposts. We are talking about the immediate evacuation of tens of thousands of settlers. The evacuation of Ofra, Shilo, Kedumim and Kiryat Arba. It is not enough to fight against the attempts to expel the Palestinian population from Sheikh Jarrah in Jerusalem. We must move the struggle to the heart of the conflict.
    Without evacuating the settlers from the future Palestinian state there will be no peace.
    We must warn from here that we are on the brink of giving up on the two-state solution. We are close to losing the possibility of peace, all because of a handful of fanatics who settled in the territories we occupied 43 years ago today.
    We will not continue to be the settlers

    Reply

  73. Hasbarassassin says:

    Help

    Reply

  74. ... says:

    dan k “But our governments do have some coercive means at their disposal that might be effective for policing the neighborhood and keeping these folks from killing each other or taking each other’s land.”
    notice how your gov’t never uses it? actions speak louder then words and the usa doesn’t hold up under scrutiny.. many people had hoped obama would alter the usa’s course, but he has not.. it is the same ol’ same ol’ bs…
    when do more ordinary americans realize the levers the usa could use are never used? when does the reality sink in for those who continually mention teh usa’s availability of options, but never the fact none of them are ever put to use?? when do these same folks realize they are being duped into believing something that is never going happen, while they are fed the regular diet of propaganda from politicians like paul hode? i look forward to that day..

    Reply

  75. Dan Kervick says:

    “… the proposed Pal country border would be within spitting distance of jerusalem,sling-shot distance from BG airport and sniper range to tel-aviv.”
    So what? The Palestinians are already within spitting distance of Jerusalem, sling-shot distance from BG airport and sniper range to Tel Aviv. They always will be. Just like your people in Israel are already within helicopter range of Jenin, artillery range of Ramallah, cluster bomb range of Nablus and white phosphorus range of Gaza city.
    Our governments have no effective means of changing what is in the hearts of Israeli Jews and Palestinian Arabs. That’s the business of poets, musicians and artists, and will take a very long time.
    But our governments do have some coercive means at their disposal that might be effective for policing the neighborhood and keeping these folks from killing each other or taking each other’s land.

    Reply

  76. nadine says:

    “It is not uncommon for states to withdraw from one territory even as they expand into another. The Israelis apparently don’t want Gaza very much for themselves. They just want to control it. But they obviously do want much of the West Bank and all of Jerusalem, and have continued to create facts on the ground there preparatory to actual annexation.”
    So the example of total withdrawal and forcibly uprooting 8000 settlers counts AGAINST Israel, not for it? The Israelis were promised it would be seen by the world community as a proof of good faith. And you wonder why the Israelis have stopped listening to the likes of you.
    4%, Dan. That’s the extent of the West Bank currently under a Jewish settlement. It hasn’t expanded all during Oslo, either. That’s how come two Israeli PMs offered more than 95% of the West Bank to the Palestinians for this state they supposedly want. They never got a response and you pretend it didn’t happen. Because by anybody’s book, giving up over 95% of a territory doesn’t exactly square with “conquest and expansion”, so the left just ignores that part.
    The only part of Jewish presence that has been extended is the security measures necessitated by the determination of the Palestinians to murder Jews, all of which can go away once a border is negotiated.
    Somehow, your humanitarian side makes you waaaay more understanding of the impulse to shoot or suicide-bomb civilians than the impulse to build a wall or check-point to guard against it. Funny, how leftist humanitarianism always sides with the terrorist.
    Bill Maher, of all unlikely people, has pinpointed one of the reasons for pro-Palestinian bias. When recently asked why the media favored the Palestinians, he replied: “I think most of them do because I think the media, to take up your point, mostly – is way too stupid to understand the issues,” Maher said. “So what they do is they go toward,

    Reply

  77. ... says:

    a least some countries continue to work with reality, even if the usa continues to ignore it at it’s peril..
    This week in South Korea, Shimon Peres was supposed to receive an honorary Doctorate degree at a local university.
    In the aftermath of the Israeli massacre on board the Mavi Marmara and the siege on Gaza, Korea responded by withdrawing that honorary degree. Instead, upon his arrival in S. Korea, Peres was greeted by Korean demonstrators who called him a murderer and a criminal.

    Reply

  78. Dan Kervick says:

    “This conflict will end when the two sides aspirations coincide,not before.”
    That will never happen, marcus. We can’t wait for the mystical alignment of aspirations. Nor can we wait for Muslims to suddenly start to love the Bible and treat it as a legal deed from God, any more than we can wait for Jews to start loving the Qu’ran.
    Israel, a technologically advanced and militarily powerful country with nuclear weapons, is perfectly capable of defending a border with with a Palestinian state. It really doesn’t matter what the much less powerful people on the other side of that border believe in their hearts.
    The Israeli obsession with Hamas statements and Islamic culture, and Israel’s pathetic need to have their “national rights” recognized, is just a big distraction. A lot of Jews hate Muslims and a lot of Muslims hate Jews. And lots of Palestinians are never going to stop feeling screwed out of their land, because they were in fact screwed out of their land. We can’t change that. The international community just needs to tell both parties where their border is now, and force them to stay on their side of it. Once you get people to stop fighting, then over time they might grow to like each other, or at least not hate each other so much. But the first step is to impose a peace on the situation.
    I was really hoping the US would pull out a win yesterday in its World Cup match against England, if only to get some payback for the stupid mess that Lord Balfour created and dropped into posterity’s lap. But that’s water under the bridge now. Israel was created and the world recognized it in 1948. What is needed now is for the world to get serious about the business it should have finished after the 1967 war of fixing a final border. Enough is enough with this Middle East crap.

    Reply

  79. ... says:

    nadine – thanks for the hasbara talking points.. i can always count on you for this!!!

    Reply

  80. Hasbarassassin says:

    WASHINGTON POST POLL;
    Should Helen Thomas be removed from the White House Press Room?
    RESULTS;
    YES; 9%
    NO; 91%
    (22167 total votes)
    http://views.washingtonpost.com/post-user-polls/2010/06/should-helen-thomas-be-removed-from-the-white-house-press-room.html?hpid=topnews

    Reply

  81. Marcus says:

    Dan K; I think your position is a reasonable and even mainstream viewpoint ,for someone sitting 3000 miles away. but it fails to take into account the aspirations of either side.This conflict will end when the two sides aspirations coincide,not before.
    UN forces cannot even prevent Hizzbulla from fortifing southern lebanon,let alone declare any kind of peace-zone. Afghanistans warring fractions must reconcile with each other, as in Iraq, Any international force would eventually come under attack from the Islamists it would even intesify their hate of the west and be portrayed as just protecting Israel.
    Your thinking seems to based on the false premise that this conflict will end if their is a pal country created in the west bank,,your so wrong.
    The conflict is based on the denial of jewish national rights anywhere in the ME,which itself has roots in a Voltairesque (see Paul Norheim) disdain for the bible and the jews association with it.
    Hamas can keep it`s social and cultural network,that`s not the problem and again irrelevant . Hamas is first and foremost a fighting force,a “resistance movement”that`s the relevant issue . Yet you support their participation in government ? That is what you smooth over (reconcile) you say you just want the conflict to end but you would increase the strength of the STRIDENTLY militaristic criminals in Hamas,give then soveirgn control over territory, this obviously would ratchet UP tensions. Which again is the international left`s agenda,to weaken and ultimatly destroy Israel and that the surviving jews ought to dissolve into the mass of humanity and cease to exist.
    It`s the discrimination of low expectations that fails to ackowledge the Islamist ultimate publically stated goal of eliminating Israel,it`s not about borders or gazans starving or aparthied this or apartheid that,it`s about what the arabs have always said ,the destruction of Israel,they have said it over and over again,jews believe them ,you don`t or don`t care,that`s why this is israels and the jews fight. these Islamists have again and again stated that their jihad ,when victorious over the jews will be extended to jews worldwide.
    you propbably know that under Islam a Dihminni must pay a special tax,but did you know that it is customary/traditional that the tax collector slaps the face of the head of the household before he pays ? Or that women are buried to their necks when being stoned for adultry whereas men are only buried to the waist(giving them a chance to escape) for the same offence ?
    If you think I`m being silly….how about that 7 year old who was hung last week in Afghanistan for espionage.
    So when jews hear how evenhanded and reasonable,mainstream people want to be,well ….(see above for examples of what agenda we don`t want t to see advanced)
    I agree with you on one importent element,the borders should be clearly delinieated,Israel should have annexed the west bank in 1967 and let the chips fall as they may.But they didn`t do that,perhaps they have been telling the truth all along and are keeping west bank land just as a bargaining chip to be given away for a peace deal like they have done before ?? just maybe it`s the Pals who don`t want a deal ??

    Reply

  82. Sand says:

    Jeremy’s Rabbi daddt also being politically active with the Hagee crowed.
    “…In the Washington DC area, two rabbis affiliated with the Conservative movement participated in a CUFI Night to Honor Israel on May 20th: Rabbi Jack Moline of Agudas Achim Congregation in Alexandria, Virginia, where the event was held, and Rabbi Marvin Bash, who is chaplain at Fort Belvoir, a military installation in Virginia.
    Moline’s participation was the lead of a May 4th report by the New York Jewish Week on Jewish organizations’ increasing acceptance of Hagee and CUFI. The paper reported:
    Rabbi Moline

    Reply

  83. Hasbarassassin says:

    David Ben-Gurion;
    “We must expel the Arabs and take their place and if we have to use force, to guarantee our own right to settle (on their land) then we have (it) at our disposal.”
    Former IDF Chief of Staff Raphael Eitan;
    “We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel….Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours.”
    The Koenig Report;
    “We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”
    Benjamin Netanyahu;
    “Israel should have exploited the (1989 Tiananmen Square violence), when world attention focused on (China), to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories.”
    – on July 22, 1946, future prime minister Menachem Begin’s Irgun (a notorious terror group) bombed the King David Hotel, massacring 92 Brits, Arabs and Jews, wounding 58 others, in an operation approved by David Ben-Gurion as head of the Jewish Agency at the time;
    – also under the Mandate, the terrorist Stern Gang (future prime minister Yitzhak Shamir one of its leaders) carried out numerous bombings, kidnappings, and killings, including the 1944 assassination of Lord Moyne in Cairo – Britain’s highest ranking official in the region;
    – on April 9, 1948 (during Israel’s “war of independence”) the Irgun, Stern Gang and other Israeli terrorists slaughtered well over 120 Palestinian men, women and children in the bloody Deir Yassin village rampage; on April 14, The New York Times reported 254 killed;
    – Israel’s “war of independence” (Palestine’s Nakba, its “Holocaust”) depopulated 531 towns and villages and 11 urban neighborhoods, committing mass slaughter, rapings, vast destruction, and countless other atrocities in displacing about 800,000 Palestinians – one of history’s greatest ever crimes of war and against humanity;
    – a week after the war’s mid-May 1948 end, Israeli troops massacred over 200 al-Tantura villagers, mostly unarmed young men murdered in cold blood;
    – on July 11 & 12, IDF forces slaughtered several hundred Lydda civilians, including 80 machine-gunned inside the Dahmash mosque;
    – from October 24 – 29, 1948, Israeli soldiers slaughtered 50 Hula, Lebanon villagers;
    – on October 29, 1948, they massacred around 200 al-Dawayima villagers;
    – on October 30, 20 more in Majd al-Kurum, 94 when they blew up a house, and hundreds in Sa’sa’ village;
    – on October 14, 1953, Ariel Sharon’s notorious Unit 101 murdered 70 Qibya, Jordan villagers;
    – on April 5, 1956, IDF shelling massacred 56 and wounded 193 in Gaza City;
    – on October 29, 1956, the IDF slaughtered about 50 Kafr Kassem village men, women and children;
    – during the 1956 Suez War, Israelis executed about 273 Egyptian soldiers and civilians in cold blood;
    – on November 12, 1956, the IDF slaughtered over 100 Rafah Refugee Camp civilians;
    – during Israel’s preemptive June 1967 Six Day War, its forces massacred around 2,000 captured Egyptian soldiers, another 340 Syrian villagers in the Golan Heights, and displaced over 300,000 Palestinians who fled to Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, and Syria to escape the carnage;
    – on June 8, 1967, Israeli forces preemptively attacked the USS Liberty (a clearly marked US intelligence ship), killing 34 Americans and wounding another 171 in international waters; Lyndon Johnson’s defense department whitewashed it as a case of “mistaken identity,” despite clear knowledge of a premeditated assault;
    – on February 21, 1973, the IDF shot down Libya Airlines Flight 114, killing 106 passengers, including one American;
    – on February 25, 1994, Baruch Goldstein (a member of Rabbi Meir Kahane’s extremist Jewish Defense League) attacked Hebron’s Cave of the Patriarchs Ibrahim mosque, massacring 29 and wounding another 129;
    – during Israel’s 1982 Lebanon invasion and occupation, IDF forces slaughtered about 18,000 Lebanese and Palestinians, including around 3,000 by its Phalangist allies in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps;
    – during the first (1987 – 1992) and second (2000 – 2005) Intifadas, IDF rampages slaughtered thousands of Palestinian men, women and children in cold blood;
    – in April 2002, IDF forces invaded Jenin and its refugee camp, cut them off from outside help, destroyed hundreds of buildings, buried many alive under the rubble, cut off power, water, food, and other essential supplies, refused to let in help (including medical aid), and killed or wounded at least dozens (perhaps hundreds) of Palestinian civilians; Israel removed bodies and buried them to prevent an accurate count;
    – during the July 2006 Lebanon war, the IDF caused mass destruction, killed about 1,300, wounded many more, and displaced around one million civilians (about one-fourth of the population);
    – during the June 2006 Operation Summer Rain against Gaza, Israelis killed around 240 (mostly civilians) and caused widespread destruction – including three main bridges, the Nusairat and al-Boreji refugee camps’ main water pipe, and the Strip’s only power plant, supplying 80% of the Territory’s electricity;
    – during the same period, the IDF conducted around 50 West Bank incursions, raiding homes, razing farmland, arresting dozens, and on June 29 the entire (elected) Hamas leadership, including eight ministers, 25 PLC Change and Reform Party members, and other Hamas officials; and
    – during the 23-day December 2008 – January 2009 Operation Cast Lead, IDF forces slaughtered over 1,400, injured around 5,500 more (many seriously), and inflicted vast destruction throughout Gaza, including vital infrastructure, hospitals, schools, mosques, government buildings, factories, other businesses, farmland, private homes, and much more unrelated to military necessity in violation of international law.

    Reply

  84. Sand says:

    With the Harman case — you reminded of an example how AIPAC is not just confined to the political ‘Court’ system, but is also embedded within the bureaucracy.
    E.g: JEREMY B. BASH [former AIPAC staffer] — was Harman’s former Intelligence aide, was a member of “Barack Obama’s national security transition team” and is now working as ‘Chief of Staff for Leon Panetta at the CIA. Jeremy’s also used to be married to Dana Bash [CNN journalist] who is now married to CNN

    Reply

  85. Carroll says:

    NYTimes.com.
    French Protest of Israeli Raid Reaches Wide Audience
    By STEVEN ERLANGER
    Published: June 12, 2010
    PARIS

    Reply

  86. Bart says:

    “Israel is the strongest ally of the United States and we must stand with them as the only democracy in the Middle East.”
    This sounds like one of those drinking phrases: “Every time you hear this tonight, take a drink.”
    Only the ignorant will think that Israel’s example will spread democracy, an alien concept in the ME.

    Reply

  87. Hasbarassassin says:

    ISRAELI NAVAL RESERVE OFFICERS in a letter to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Israel Defense Forces Chief of Staff Gabi Ashkenazi;
    “First and foremost, we protest the fact that responsibility for the tragic results was immediately thrust onto the organizers of the flotilla”
    “This demonstrates contempt for the responsibility that belongs principally to the hierarchy of commanders and those who approved the mission. This shows contempt for the values of professionalism, the purity of weapons and for human lives”

    Reply

  88. Hasbarassassin says:

    IDF spokesperson;

    Reply

  89. Dan Kervick says:

    “Oh, yeah, that withdrawal from Gaza was a classic case of conquest and expansion.”
    It is not uncommon for states to withdraw from one territory even as they expand into another. The Israelis apparently don’t want Gaza very much for themselves. They just want to control it. But they obviously do want much of the West Bank and all of Jerusalem, and have continued to create facts on the ground there preparatory to actual annexation.

    Reply

  90. nadine says:

    Before you busy little lefties declare IHH an innocent charity, I suggest you look up what sources other that the Israelis, like for instance the previous Turkish government, have had to say about IHH. Or, for that matter what IHH says about itself:
    “–Hamas is a terrorist organization and IHH has acted as a support group helping Hamas obtain political support and supplies. It has even undertaken to break the strategic blockade of Hamas’s little kingdom. Just as Americans are arrested for furnishing equipment and money to terrorist groups as constituting

    Reply

  91. nadine says:

    Hey Khalid, none of the medical equipment was on the Mavi Marmara, which contained no freight beyond the passengers’ personal gear. If you are upset at the medical supplies not reaching Gaza, I suggest you take it up with Hamas. Israel has offered to truck the stuff in, but Hamas is refusing to take it.

    Reply

  92. nadine says:

    “The chief requirement for the rest of us is a strong police presence so as to keep the war under control, impose and enforce a workable truce among the gang-bangers, and prevent the conflict from spreading its noxious poisons further into the surrounding region” (Dan Kervick)
    You speak as if the surrounding region was free of such poisons, instead of being the source of them. (Who knows, your notion of the world is so detached from reality that maybe you do think like this) The Arab states created the “Palestinians” out of bunch of refugees whom they deliberately kept stateless, in order to prevent a solution to the Israeli/Arab conflict. Now Iran has taken over patronage of the Palestinians so the Arabs have been hoist on their own petard.
    Well, Dan Kervick, perhaps it is some consolation to you that Obama’s policy of appeasement towards Iran seems to be driving Israel, Egypt and Saudi Arabia together for mutual defense…the only reason Gaza is an issue now is that the Trukish PM Erdogan wanted to make it one, and Obama’s weakness and waffling gave him the opening.
    The Arabs have never cared less about the Palestinians, esp. now that they have the Iranians to worry about, twice as much now that Turkey has allied itself with Iran and Syria.
    “If Israel were settled down behind a border *in Israel*, and were still facing attacks from Hamas and other Palestinian groups, it would be easy to identify the Palestinian rejectionists and deal with them, and to credit Israeli claims of self-defense. But since Israel continues to wage an aggressive war of conquest and expansion into Palestinian territory,”
    Oh, yeah, that withdrawal from Gaza was a classic case of conquest and expansion. When you say things this stupid, Dan, it only reinforces to every Israeli that you will NEVER acknowledge any Israeli withdrawal, but instead swallow whole whatever excuses the Palestinians serve up for why it’s not good enough, it doesn’t count, the Israelis have actually not withdrawn at all since they are still supplying food and water and electricity and trying to protect themselves from missiles, etc.
    For a “border” to be a border, both sides need to agree on the border; so all the Palestinians need to do to put Israel perpetually in the wrong is to never agree. Hey, they can do that. It’s worked a charm so far, hasn’t it?
    Being a “realist” means never having to take reality into account. The new definition of the Left.

    Reply

  93. Hasbarassassin says:

    FROM AIPAC…..
    http://action.aipac.org/flotilla_timeline_/
    Gaza Flotilla Facts
    On May 31, the Israel Defense Forces intercepted six ships, known as the

    Reply

  94. Dan Kervick says:

    “…and get rid of all the religious cooks.”
    Meant to say ” … and get rid of all the religious kooks.”
    I don’t think we can get rid of the religious cooks either. It’s none of our business whether Israelis want to keep kosher.

    Reply

  95. ... says:

    nice post dan k.. it reminds me of what people say about obama speeches.. very nice but that’s as far as they seem to go…
    the usa speaks unconditional support for israel and the world is tired of its inability to show neutrality whether it be the paul hodes or obama who has to jump every time israel tells him how high… the usa ignored the goldstone report, or worse and it has done the very same here with the flotilla.. the usa is not capable of anything at this point as it has lost all credibility on the i/p issue.. it is actually worse with people like hodes spreading propaganda to make it that much harder for the reasonable to get a more honest, balanced viewpoint into the mainstream… instead his views are considered quite normal.. they aren’t and neither is the usa’s position in any of this..
    the usa has shown itself unable to be a neutral player in the middle east in spite of good intentions on the part of some of its politicians and people…

    Reply

  96. Dan Kervick says:

    “Dan could you explain how you reconcile your support of keeping Hamas in power?”
    Reconcile it with what?
    Whether Hamas stays in power or remains influential in Palestinian politics is something for the Palestinians to work out. Before Hamas and Fatah had their civil war, Hamas had actually been elected in an election international observers said was fair. Apparently their support base among the population of Gaza is deeply rooted. And like Hizbollah, they are more than just a government or political party. They are a comprehensive cultural and social network. So removing them from power by force seems fanciful.
    I take the Palestinians as they are, not as we might wish them to be. And the same goes for Israel. I have no interest in long shot schemes to transform the culture of Israel, and get rid of all the religious cooks, Jewish jihadists, creepy fascists and ethno-fanatical chauvinists. Israel can stew in its own fanatical juices forever, for all I care.
    I see the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as something like a gang war in a bad neighborhood. The chief requirement for the rest of us is a strong police presence so as to keep the war under control, impose and enforce a workable truce among the gang-bangers, and prevent the conflict from spreading its noxious poisons further into the surrounding region, or to the the places where decent people live, especially in any way that would drag the US into a major war. The American people shouldn’t have to spend one more dollar or one more life on this riot of squabbling jackasses. But if we keep going the way we’re going, we’re going to end up wasting very many lives and very many dollars.
    A good number of people in that small region of Israeo-Palestine – both Jews and Muslims – appear to me to be totally nuts and a bunch of troublemakers. It can’t be our business to be their shrinks or their social workers or their political reformers. Our business is just to keep as much of the rest of the world as possible from being infected by their psychopathic nuttiness.
    Israel’s legitimate security concern regarding Hamas and other Palestinian factions consists in keeping bombs and terrorists out of Israel – period. But I don’t believe that it should be left up to Israel to determine what people and commercial goods go in and out of Gaza. The Israelis have proven themselves to be vindictive, sadistic fucks, and as we can see, giving them this kind of license has in effect allowed them to act as cretinous, out of control “bulls” lording it over the prisoners in the world’s biggest jail cell.
    If Israel were settled down behind a border *in Israel*, and were still facing attacks from Hamas and other Palestinian groups, it would be easy to identify the Palestinian rejectionists and deal with them, and to credit Israeli claims of self-defense. But since Israel continues to wage an aggressive war of conquest and expansion into Palestinian territory, it is impossible to separate reasonable Palestinian efforts at self-defense from revanchist Palestinian efforts at the re-conquest of Israel; and Israeli claims of self-defense are rendered laughable by the colonialist enterprise in the West Bank.
    You haven’t been here that long, Marcus, but the view I have expressed for a long time is that neither party to this stupid and endless war is likely to make peace without strong, unified intervention by major outside powers backed by a broad global consensus. Rather than stupidly pinning our hopes on “negotiations” and “proximity talks” and whatnot among Israelis and Palestinians, the only talks that should be taking place are talks among the US, Europeans, Russians and a few of the more sane Middle East players on a common approach to putting the global foot down. We need to draw a line, grab the two warring peoples by the scruffs of their necks, throw them on their sides of the line, shut down all shipments of arms and military aid of any kind to either side, and *shut this conflict down*. And if they don’t like it, we can sanction their asses back to age of Samson and Delilah.
    The chief external obstacle to progress is a pattern of remarkably stupid and politically cowardly US governments who insist on feeding the crisis by enabling one particular group of gang-bangers.

    Reply

  97. Hasbarassassian's Assistant says:
  98. Neo Controll says:

    Dan K was being generous Marcus. Dan is anything but a supporter of terrorism. Hamas is a talking point, a tug of war in this great ME drama. You are being silly, and you are putting words in Dan’s mouth.
    As to your quaking at the dire prediction that ‘they’ “want the whole world, sooner or later (they will wait a thousand years)” — really — knock themselves out. The US is doing more to screw up the globe, with lots of help from all other exceptionalists. And we’ll both be long gone. Let’s just focus on the next year or two, or so, and see if we can find some little thread of sanity. Shall we? Eh Israelis? Eh Hamas? Oh yeah, eh Christian zionist hypocrites?

    Reply

  99. Marcus says:

    …, dear sir I would like to mention how much I appreciate the civil tone of your post,,I think the abscence of POS will have a calming effect here…but,I`m a little suspicious of hasbrassassin,I think he might be back in disguise-what do you think ?
    On the subject of israeli civil rights…in my opinion,the arabs in Israel have as much oppurtunity and legal protection or more than do 30 million residents of your country-the illegals- and the same or more than visible minorities in any white western country. Given their fifth column status as (by and large) non tax paying,criminal, malcontents,I think they are treated remarkably well.
    “politically based on one ethnicity” HELLO ? name me ONE country,just one if you can,where the political class is not overwhelmingly dominated by one particular ethnicity ?
    The world just isn`t yet where you would like it to be.
    I live in Canada,possibly the most multi-cultural country in the world,yet Quebec is 100% dominated by white francophones and Ottawa is overwhelmingly white bread, period.

    Reply

  100. Marcus says:

    the problem the left has with their peaceful resistance strategy is that the people they want to “protect” are not peaceful ie;Hamas and Hamas are not shy about telling anyone that they are a fighting force I don`t get that ???????????
    Hamas will tell you/anyone that they want absolute control of the west bank and to destroy israel(in no particular order),and if American civilians or the country itself are hurt..they will party like there`s no tommorrow, not complicated to understand. How can any patriot support that ?
    Dan K. says he thinks traitorism is a serious charge ? yet he supports Hamas over the one entity fighting it,,Israel.
    Hamas is an important part of the Islamist threat that President O has labelled , Ammerica`s greatest threat. On this topic their is no denying that israel and america`s interests coincide.
    Bear in mind that if israel is overrun somehow and it`s inhabitants slaughtered ,somehow this will only wet their appetite. They are not shy to tell you…..open your ears….they want the whole world,sonner or later (they will wait a thousand years)They want control of every little thing in the world.
    Dan could you explain how you reconcile your support of keeping Hamas in power ?
    Can any leftist explain their alliance with Islamists ????????????????????????????

    Reply

  101. ... says:

    marcus – israel isn’t a democracy.. it’s a country politically based on one’s ethnicity… one law for jewish people, another for everyone else.. and this doesn’t even go into how it treats areas outside of it’s jurisdiction – the flotilla being only the most recent example of it wanting to claim it is in a war with hamas to make an exception to it’s actions in international waters, while not wanting to be called on any of it.. israel at this point is a rogue nation..

    Reply

  102. Marcus says:

    Fadi the reporter is typical of arab media and culture they just don`t GET democracy.
    Hamas staged a coup d`etat,they murdered over 200 of their political opponents …..and this guy fadi wants them to be part of the government !!!!!
    Nato should invade Gaza (not difficult) remove,imprison the hamas thugs and bring back democracy to Gaza.
    Gaza is in URGENT need of some democracy,if the international left wasn`t so anti-democratic ,hamas would be gone and the seige lifted.
    So many words and so few few solutions from the anti-israel crowd, Helen Thomas being the only exception,she actually came up with the only solution to Islamist terrorists that I`ve ever heard from the left…which is basically…RUN AWAY.

    Reply

  103. JohnH says:

    Wigwag, Nadine, kotz and marcus continue to silently condone the execution of unarmed American civilians, like Rachel Corrie and Furkan Dogan.
    So I expect Wigwag, that self-professed “defender of women and children’s rights,” to silently condone IDF abuse and torture of children. As for Nadine, I expect that she will let her imagination run wild, ranting hysterically about her delusions that Arabs would “certainty” do the same thing.
    Cultured barbarians.

    Reply

  104. Marcus says:

    Daniel Lea is the name of one of the Israeli commandos who fired his side-arm during the boarding,this in spite of having been shot in the leg,one arm broken and his left ear cut/sawed off.
    I hope he and all the others recieve the distinguished medal of honour they deserve and that Israel names a warship after him, one with sufficient RAMMING SPEED.

    Reply

  105. Hasbarassassin says:

    Palestinian Child Prisoners: The systematic and institutionalised ill-treatment and torture of Palestinian children by Israeli authorities
    This report documents the widespread ill-treatment and torture of Palestinian children at the hands of the Israeli army and police force. It contains the testimonies of 33 children who bear witness to the abuse they received at the hands of soldiers from the moment of arrest through to an often violent interrogation. Children report being painfully shackled for hours on end, kicked, beaten and threatened, some with death, until they provide confessions, some written in Hebrew, a language they do not speak or understand. The report finds that these illegally obtained confessions are routinely used as evidence in the military courts to convict around 700 Palestinian children every year.
    Once sentenced, the children who gave these testimonies were mostly imprisoned inside Israel in breach of the Fourth Geneva Convention where they receive few family visits, and little or no education. The report concludes that this widespread and systematic abuse is occurring within a general culture of impunity where in 600 complaints made against Israeli Security Agency interrogators for alleged ill-treatment and torture, not a single criminal investigation was ever conducted.
    The report also contains recent recommendations made by the UN Committee Against Torture which expressed ‘deep concern’ at reports of the abuse of Palestinian children when it reviewed Israel’s compliance with the Convention Against Torture in May 2009.
    http://www.dci-pal.org/english/publ/research/CPReport.pdf

    Reply

  106. ... says:

    wigwag – thanks for the condensation of these politicians views “”Bomb, bomb, bomb Iran.”"
    perhaps dan k can see how important it is to challenge these same extremely misguided politicians.. they include paul hodes…

    Reply

  107. rc says:

    What is Washington going to do if Iran ‘expels’ it’s Persian Jewish population fully armed to walk through Iraq on the road to ‘liberate’ Israel from Russian and American Zionist control? Protected all the way by Iran’s military?

    Reply

  108. Hasbarassassin says:

    http://ingaza.wordpress.com/2010/04/24/what-threat-did-i-pose-the-israeli-soldiers-international-injured-by-israeli-gunfire-asks/
    What threat did I pose the Israeli soldiers?
    The latest in a growing number of non-violent protesters shot by well-armed Israeli soldiers, three unarmed demonstrators

    Reply

  109. Hasbarassassin says:

    http://palsolidarity.org/2010/06/12704/
    Time to break the siege on Gaza: A survivor

    Reply

  110. Hasbarassassin says:

    Call or Write your Representative
    Call Representative Barbara Lee (202-225-2661) and Senators Dianne Feinstein (202-224-3841) and Barbara Boxer (202-224-3553). Demand that Israel be held accountable for its attacks against US citizens like Tristan, Rachel Corrie and Brian Avery, and for killing thousands of Palestinian civilians with US weapons. Demand an end to billions of US taxpayer dollars to Israel every year.

    Reply

  111. Hasbarassassin says:

    http://justicefortristan.org/
    Tristan is Back!
    Berkeley-After more than a year in a Tel Aviv hospital, Bay Area activist and photo-journalist Tristan Anderson has returned home to California. Tristan was critically injured when he was shot in the head at close range with a metal high-velocity tear gas canister at the Israeli Separation Wall on March 13, 2009, while taking photos following a demonstration against the apartheid wall in the West Bank village of Ni

    Reply

  112. WigWag says:

    “WigWag, although one wouldn’t know it from the prime topics of discussion on this blog, I would guess that only about 10% to 15% of the people in this country have a firm and pronounced position on Israel and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. “The percentage is probably even lower up here in New Hampshire. Among the people who really care – just like in Washington – the numbers probably break 70-30 on the pro-Israel side. For most folks, the issue ranks pretty low on their political importance meters, way behind issues like the state budget, taxes, jobs, health care, retirement benefits, school funding, growth vs. environmental protection and unfunded federal mandates. For the small number of people who really care, Hodes’s position probably helps him more than it hurts him. But most people just don’t care.” (Dan Kervick)
    I agree with your statement 100 percent. I do think that in the South, where evangelical Protestants and dispensationalists have a strong presence, pro-Israel sentiment is more firmly entrenched then it is in the largely libertarian *live free or die* state.
    Anyone who doesn’t like Hodes should check out the positions of William Binnie and Kelly Ayotte on the Middle East and everything else. Ayotee looks like she’s headed to the Republican nomination. Her position on Iran is virtually identical to the position of John McCain (who has endorsed her).
    What’s that position?
    Bomb, bomb, bomb Iran.

    Reply

  113. Cee says:

    These stand with Israel should go live there. Seriously!
    Don’t make me laugh Wig Wag.
    http://www.thedailybanter.com/tdb/2009/01/israel-admits-hamas-did-not-break-cease-fire.html
    Israel Admits Hamas Did Not Break Cease Fire
    By Ben Cohen
    A rather large and inconvenient fact that seems to have escaped the American media is that Israel broke the cease fire with Hamas, not the other way around. Contrary to Israel’s assertion that it was defending itself, Hamas did not fire a single rocket into Israeli territory during the cease fire, and only began after Israel crossed its border and killed 6 members of Hamas. This is something that Israel amazingly admits, yet refuses to apologize for. It should come as a huge slap in the face to the unabashed supporters of the assault on Gaza, but as yet, no one has stepped forward to take responsibility. Watch below:

    Reply

  114. Dan Kervick says:

    WigWag, although one wouldn’t know it from the prime topics of discussion on this blog, I would guess that only about 10% to 15% of the people in this country have a firm and pronounced position on Israel and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The percentage is probably even lower up here in New Hampshire. Among the people who really care – just like in Washington – the numbers probably break 70-30 on the pro-Israel side. For most folks, the issue ranks pretty low on their political importance meters, way behind issues like the state budget, taxes, jobs, health care, retirement benefits, school funding, growth vs. environmental protection and unfunded federal mandates.
    For the small number of people who really care, Hodes’s position probably helps him more than it hurts him. But most people just don’t care.

    Reply

  115. ... says:

    thanks dan… in answer to your last question, i will return it with a question ” what the hell has the usa done for me other then turn the planet into a fucking war zone?” i am tired of the same bullshit coming out of the mouths of these people… i think they are traitorous to the planet, not just the usa…

    Reply

  116. David says:

    “Israel

    Reply

  117. Dan Kervick says:

    the one is headed in the same direction as the other…
    No, they are completely different things … Propaganda is ubiquitous. Almost everyone engaged in public political discourse is producing propaganda of one kind or another.
    In any case, “propaganda” for you probably just means “organized advocacy for political positions with which I strongly disagree.”
    Do I wish I could somehow use a cognitive scalpel to take out the fiercely pro-Israel part of Hodes’s political outlook, and leave just the parts I like behind? Sure. But that’s life. Almost every politician I have ever voted for has some crappy position I wish I could change. But the real world is filled with real politicians, who are always a mixed bag; not fantasy blow-up politicians who are the perfect political mates for Dan Kervick, or for …”
    I happen to think that calling someone a traitor is serious business. A traitor to the United States isn’t just someone who promotes political positions that can be harmful to the country. Most of the politicians in America do that. A traitor is someone who actively breaks faith with his country, and works with his country’s enemies with the intent of damaging or destroying his own country.
    Paul Hodes was an assistant attorney general for New Hampshire under David Souter, and was a path-breaker in prosecuting white color crime. He has also been a strong promoter of the arts in New Hampshire, helping to build the Capitol Center for the Arts, which is about five miles from my home. I’m satisfied that he has served his country, even though his Israel statements make me grind my teeth and put my stomach in a knot. When he’s not yapping about Israel, I probably agree with him 80% to 90% of the time.
    What the hell have you done for America from up there in Canada, other than shoot your mouth off in our general direction?

    Reply

  118. ... says:

    see if some of the apologists for israel and the usa can swallow this while wanting to bunker down inside their prison mentality :

    Reply

  119. Sand says:

    The human cost of the Gaza Prison Camp that the likes of Schumer and the rest who support starving and killing innocents:
    n/t: Helena Cobban
    http://justworldnews.org/
    ————————————–
    * Running the Gaza blockade
    by John Lyons, Middle East correspondent
    From: The Australian June 12, 2010 — A special report
    “…Life can be cruel inside the besieged Palestinian territory, but who is responsible?
    IT’S hard watching a baby slowly die. He’s only five days old and you can see how hard his little chest is thumping. He seems to be fighting to stay alive.
    It’s 9.24 on Wednesday morning this week and he has only 36 minutes of guaranteed life left.
    After that, he’s on his own. He’s got a heart problem and needs a medication that would be available in any hospital in Australia.
    Gaza doesn’t have any more prostaglandin. It can’t get through Israel’s and Egypt’s blockade of the strip of land.
    The night before, at 10, the boy had been given the hospital’s final batch, which an aid worker had smuggled into Gaza and whose effect would last 12 hours.
    Three days before, the hospital faxed off a referral note stamped Urgent, but the chances of the boy getting through the Erez crossing into an Israeli hospital are virtually nil…
    Another baby near him is dying too. Her name is Noor Taha and she’s 34 days old. Both her kidneys are failing and doctors need to do a CT scan before they know exactly how to treat her, but a tube has broken on the CT machine and the hospital hasn’t been able to get the tubes into Gaza.
    Unlike Seraj Abu Jarad, Noor Taha’s cloudy little eyes are open as she tries to focus.
    One doctor says her condition is critical, very bad. The hospital cannot send a request for her to enter Israel until it has an accurate diagnosis and it cannot do that without a CT machine. So Noor Taha is dying, too.
    Another girl, aged nine, may die as well. Because of a lack of equipment, her lymphoma was not diagnosed early enough for effective intervention.
    Once it was diagnosed, the hospital tried to get her into Israel for treatment of a disease that is usually manageable.
    It took seven months for Israel and the Palestinian Authority to process her paperwork, during which time the tumour grew and spread into her lungs…”

    Reply

  120. ... says:

    oh bullshit wigwag.. it is the same tired rhetoric these politicians drag out onto the public time and time again.. at a certain point, folks just can’t stomach it anymore, especially when it is coming from the 2 military goons on the planet – usa and israel..

    Reply

  121. Sand says:

    We know what Hodes says and ‘feels’ about Israel?
    Shame he’s not interested in bringing Israel to the table with their unmonitored nukes program?
    http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2010/04/09/ml_nuclear_summit_israel/index.html
    Oh, but that’s right he’s a member of the *Jewish* Caucus with the likes of neocon Schumer and Lieberman and the rest of gang — so it’s his job to make sure there’s no discussion in Congressional committee hearings about that ‘huge’ factoid. Same goes for all the ‘relevant’ heads in the ‘Foreign Affairs’ Committees — members of the *Jewish* Caucus.

    Reply

  122. Don Bacon says:

    Kervick: “you’re way out of line”
    That’s rich.

    Reply

  123. WigWag says:

    Paul Hodes is an interesting guy and he is running for Senate (to replace Judd Gregg). This is what Hodes has to say on his website about the Israeli-Palestinian dispute and Iran;

    Reply

  124. ... says:

    dan k, i note you didn’t question my comment on him being a propagandist… the one is headed in the same direction as the other…

    Reply

  125. Marcus says:

    The seige of iarael has been from the getgo. nothing new there.
    The only thing ” not sustainable” is the Hamas regime.
    “build their own democracy” ?? lift the seige of hamas and they would build it with guns.When Hamas arrests the men who threw their political opponents off the buildings ,then they could sit with civilized men.
    If the international community were to topple Hamas,stage new elections with sanitized x-hamas guys against the fatah people,that would start looking more like a peace partner
    The Pals are split in two with both sides having no political opposition-how quaint but NOT sustainable
    ,It`s Democracy or islamist only 2 options emerging. Fatah and Hamas are the test tube example, we should have only one horse in that race,yes ? ,that is secular democracy,In this case it`s the multi-party system that is the palestian authority.
    Hamas is only a political party,the essay author seems to think that their some kind of ancient kingdom that needs to be reconciled with.
    .Hamas can`t stand with it`s current make-up,that`s the REAL unsustainable situation ! The essayist doesn`t GET democracy,that`s obvious.
    Iraq`s parlimenary democracy might yet prove to be the bullwark it was intended to be.the ambition to spread democracy is urgently needed in Gaza.
    How`s this ? ,Make the west bank an international zone. A designated world heritage site-We may see a big up=swing in biblical tourism,…that spill is reaching epic proportions-scary.I remeber something about the seas turning red,people said algae could do that, nobody thought of oil. What a blight that product has been, man, I`m sure glad that it isn`t the jews in that business…you never hear about t-shirts destroying the world !
    If they can`t decide who gets it,then niether of them do,a solomic solution,if either side Israel or Palertine dissagree,they would be the mother who would see their baby cut in two instead of sharing-with each other and the world.
    the old city jewish muslim christian quarters would be soveirgn.
    Same thing in Kashmir,alot of people when their young want to visit Kashmir.

    Reply

  126. Dan Kervick says:

    …, you’re way out of line. Hodes isn’t a traitor.

    Reply

  127. ... says:

    Hodes: Obama

    Reply

  128. ... says:

    and lest we forget, hodes religion?
    jewish………..
    “ps: There are 9,970 Jews in New Hampshire out of a total population of 1,309,940 (<1%))”
    not a very good representation for the rest of his riding, but par fa the course in the usrael…

    Reply

  129. ... says:

    Paul Hodes is a propagandist and a traitor.. eventually it will catch up with him, even if his coffers are open for cash… his motives are completely suspect..
    anyone with a shred of neutrality can see that it is israel that is the agent of terror with regard to the flotilla… israel might be good at propaganda but the internet is changing the playing field… why bother with the nyt or wapo when one can get a more honest expression of what is going on in the world today via the net??? the younger generation is where the future rests and they aren’t buying the bullshit.

    Reply

  130. Sand says:

    Hodes is a member of the *Jewish* Caucus — A Caucus supporting/advocating for the ethnic cleansing *Jewish* State of Israel — I mean duh?
    http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2010/05/obama_meets_with_almost_all_je.html
    “…Hodes says his support in Congress for Israel was never in doubt.

    Reply

  131. Dan Kervick says:

    Hodes is a bit evasive about the blockade and economic warfare against Gaza, and most of the other issues that are raised by this incident.

    Reply

  132. Cee says:

    I recall when Ehud Barak said if he had been born a Palestinian he would have become a terrorist.

    Reply

  133. WigWag says:

    Congressman Paul Hodes (D-NH) of New Hampshire has an interesting take on the whole situation in Gaza and the flotilla controversy. Here’s what he had to say,
    June 3, 2010 (Press Release)
    “Without question, Israel has both the right to act in self-defense and the duty to protect its people from terror. That includes the right to stop Hamas, a terrorist organization, from acquiring the means to do harm to Israel. The ships which set out for Gaza were on clear notice of Israel

    Reply

  134. Don Bacon says:

    “The siege of Gaza has failed to accomplish Israel’s goals.”
    I disagree. The siege has increased Israel’s authority and its perceived security unmolested by the world community. The net result of the recent raid is to force the US even closer to Israel and widen the rift between the US and the Muslim world. Israel is now the only close US ally in the region.
    Can anyone imagine President Obama tripping over to Cairo or Istanbul any time soon for another speech promoting US/Muslim solidarity? No way. Particularly as increased support for Israel builds in the US Congress, the US will be further isolated from the Muslim world and this will reverberate everywhere the US has interests that involve Muslims.
    Anti-US Muslim forces everywhere have been fortified and strengthened. The increased US support for Israel, and against countries like Turkey and Iran, is a great recruitment inducement for anti-US fighters. The further US alienation of Iran and Turkey further isolates and weakens the US, while promoting US/Israel unity in the face of increased opposition.
    Israel is experiencing a surge of renewed fellowship from the US — that’s all that counts.

    Reply

  135. Dan Kervick says:

    “Lift the siege on Gaza, encourage a unity government, and let the Palestinians build their own democracy.”
    Sounds good. But *where* precisely should that democracy be? Does the United States, which claims to support a Palestinian state, even have a position on this question?

    Reply

Add your comment

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *