Scratching the Surface of Radicalism in Germany

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German-police.jpgOn Monday Germany’s domestic intelligence agency, the Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution, announced the launch of a new counter-terrorism initiative, a hotline for members of radical Islamists groups to call where they can get advice for leaving the group. The idea, based on long-running programs for Germans leaving neo-Nazi groups, has gotten relatively favorable coverage from wire services and news sites. German Interior Minister Thomas de Maizi

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31 comments on “Scratching the Surface of Radicalism in Germany

  1. Sweetness says:

    Weeding time…
    Carroll writes: “The allure is the ‘normalization of the Jews”???
    SN: If you read a little bit about Zionism–something that
    doesn’t automatically equate it with Nazism–you’d know that
    this has been one of its aims and allures.
    CLL: “Normal” for most of the world’s population
    is assimilating and intergrating into the
    countries they live in.
    SN: If they can, which isn’t all that often. See “balkanization.”
    Or see “The South, USA, The First 400 Years.” Or see Rwanda.
    Or see Congo. Or look at the 70% unemployment rates among
    Native Americans in our very own democracy.
    CLL: Iranian jews born and raised in Iran aren’t, despite the
    zionist inducements to get them to, leaving Iran for Israel are
    they?
    SN: Actually, we’ve already seen how, using your numbers or
    POA’s, that 75% of them DID leave.
    CLL: Zionism and Israel makes the jews ‘abnormal’ to the world.
    SN: Not particularly, they were considered abnormal long before
    Israel or Zionism came on the scene. This is one of those facts
    you have ignored for years now. It was this abnormal treatment
    that GAVE RISE to Zionism in the first place.

    Reply

  2. Carroll says:

    Posted by Marcus, Jun 28 2010, 2:00PM – Link
    The allure of zionism is not as you claim,to exalt jews as some kind of special “chosen” people but rather it is exactly the opposite, the allure is the normalization of jews ,to have a country with all the attendant problems that entails
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    The allure is the ‘normalization of the Jews”???
    My gawd, What do you use for a brain?
    “Normal” for most of the world’s population
    is assimilating and intergrating into the
    countries they live in.
    Iranian jews born and raised in Iran aren’t, despite the zionist inducements to get them to, leaving Iran for Israel are they?
    Zionism and Israel makes the jews ‘abnormal’ to the world.
    If zionism and Israel is all about normalizing the jews and ‘self determination’ of the jews and etc….why are half the world’s jews living in other countries? Why aren’t they all ‘realizing’ their self determination and normalization and nationalism in Israel?
    Huh? Why?
    And now that anti semitism is on the rise around the world why aren’t they all running for
    Israel? Isn’t that one the claims they make, that Israel was created so they could all escape anti semtism by moving to the safe haven of Israel?
    I wonder why you people don’t know how stupid, illogical and idiotic all your reasoning is. Is it because you are stupid? What it is?

    Reply

  3. Sweetness says:

    Posted by Carroll, Jun 28 2010, 1:02AM – Link
    Pretty stunningly ignorant on almost all counts, Carroll, including on your own religion.

    Reply

  4. Dirk says:

    “Carroll: you misrepresent Zionism and its allure,you are 360degrees wrong as usual.” (drooled Marcus)
    Just wondering, were you home schooled?

    Reply

  5. JohnH says:

    Nadine’s usual pearls of wisdom–people who live in glass houses should throw stones!
    People are supposed to CRITICIZE SOMEBODY ELSE, ANYBODY else for creating refugees. But no one is supposed to criticize the United States for presiding over a civil war that created a couple million permanent refugees in Iraq and more in Afghanistan. Nor is anyone supposed to criticize the US funded Israeli government for ethnic cleansing, dispossession and deprivation of a couple million permanent Palestinian refugees.

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  6. Marcus says:

    Nadine.. RIGHT ON! sister.
    Carroll: you misrepresent Zionism and its allure,you are 360degrees wrong as usual.
    The allure of zionism is not as you claim,to exalt jews as some kind of special “chosen” people but rather it is exactly the opposite, the allure is the normalization of jews ,to have a country with all the attendant problems that entails.
    Thats one reason that zionists are immune to your taunts and insults, claiming genocide or torture or espionage, these are all simply the unfortunate offshoots of the nation state at war that ALL nations have in the past or are currently guilty of….Jews are no better and no worse, Israeli actions prove it.
    Not so special at all, which is exactly how we like it.
    of course, how .01% of the worlds population can accunulate 25% of the worlds nobel prize winners is a different matter that one could point-out is rather “special” I can`t deny that,,can you ?
    btw; when you manage to erase tribal identities in the M/E, can you let us know.

    Reply

  7. nadine says:

    “a) those ethnically cleansing Uzbeks have no supporters here, defending their actions
    b) it is not being done with US connivance and American tax dollars.” (JohnH)
    a) You lie. They have you to defend them, saying 400,000 new refugees, mass rapes and killings are not worth noticing. Such a fine humanitarian you are!
    b) You lie again. We are giving millions of dollars to Kyrgystan for bases. Matter of fact, the presence of the US base was a main factor in toppling the Bakiyev government. So our tax dollars absolutely support Kyrgystan. And we aren’t saying a word against the pogrom.
    Now what do you have to say to that, liar?

    Reply

  8. Carroll says:

    Greenwald….
    If someone told me I had to select one paragraph to describe the crux of political disputes, I very well might choose this one from George Orwell’s Notes on Nationalism (h/t Hume’s Ghost):
    “All nationalists have the power of not seeing resemblances between similar sets of facts. A British Tory will defend self-determination in Europe and oppose it in India with no feeling of inconsistency. Actions are held to be good or bad, not on their own merits, but according to who does them, and there is almost no kind of outrage — torture, the use of hostages, forced labour, mass deportations, imprisonment without trial, forgery, assassination, the bombing of civilians — which does not change its moral colour when it is committed by

    Reply

  9. Carroll says:

    Posted by PissedOffAmerican, Jun 27 2010, 10:07PM – Link
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Yep, the “other Jews’ are in the minority. It’s amazing to me how a majority of a group can be brainwashed, for lack of a better description.
    But having thought about it I think it stems in part from Judaism itself. In the Jewish religion Jews are always called upon ‘as Jews”, Jewish morality”, “Jews as the enlightened” Jews as chosen” and so forth.
    We see that kind of talk from sweetness, the religious Jew here, all the time, extolling the superior morality of Jews, according to their teachings, history and etc..
    Now, when I go to church I am not called upon as a
    “Episcopalian”, no one preaches that “as an Episcopalian or a gentile” I have some special moral standing or enlightenment or duty ‘as an Episcopalian” or that I am chosen because I am a Episcopalian or gentile.
    But even so, the Jew only specialness centric of Judaism wouldn’t be a problem if left at that and not grown in to a ethnic, nationalistic, political aberration…in Israel and the US.
    I think if you are already indoctrinated to being religiously ‘special’ it’s only a small step to transferring it to “World’s Most Exceptional” “people”, ‘race’, ‘nation’ etc..and considering all others as not as deserving as the Jews.
    So take this taught religious chosenness and combine it with taught victimhood and historic powerlessness and put it in a democracy like the US where they have the power and right of speech and demands and we can see the allure of zionism at work. Thru zionism and a democracy sensitive to discrimination ..and to political money…they can be not only religiously special but assume an exalted status ahead of all people of the world, a ‘speical tribe of people….an ‘empowering’ movement for the Jews, at once both victim and powerful. Courtesy of the zionist and the world’s superpower.
    It’s very seductive to ordinary people, especially those brought up on religious chosenness to begin with and then on the holocaust.
    It gives them something beyond just their religon and their own ordinary lives to be a part of, special recongization and privilages.
    Imagine the feeling a Jew gets when all the politicians show to pledge everything the US has to them and Israel. It’s a high you can’t get from drugs.
    Unfortunately it is exactly like a drug induced euphoria and they don’t believe the maxim applies to them…because why should they?.. they’re the chosen.
    Principiis obsta and Finem respice

    Reply

  10. JohnH says:

    nadine’s rant has nothing to do with MarkL’s point.
    Interesting that a NY Times reporter characterized Jewish terrorism as ROMANTIC!!!
    http://justworldnews.org/archives/004053.html
    Well, Nadine is right in one sense. Israelis pretty much gave up terrorism once they got a state. Now the state does the ethnic cleansing, conducts periodic pogroms in neighboring states, imprisoned a million and a half Palestinians in Gaza, and imposed a brutal occupation in the West Bank.
    Today, any Jew who has terrorist inclinations need only join the Mossad, the IDF, or one of the state sanctioned settler groups.

    Reply

  11. nadine says:

    MarkL, you are nuts. If Hamas had Israel’s army, there wouldn’t be one Jew left alive in Israel. Yet you see that Palestinians are not only alive but growing in numbers, yet declare there is no difference in terrorists between Muslims and Jews. As if Christians or Jews were exhorting their followers to commit mass murder for the sake of God. Where are the Christian, Hindu, Jewish suicide bombers? Of every terrorist attack in the last 20 years, what percentage of the perpetrators (and victims) have been Muslim? 99% and 95% respectively.
    You are an ideologue committed to a false ideological view of the world, in which every religion is the same, except yours, which is multiculturalism.

    Reply

  12. PissedOffAmerican says:

    Of course, there ARE Jews that recognize calling a racist and fascist nation “The Jewish State” tends to diominish the values and ideals of their religion. But these Jews are few in numbers, and definitely don’t have the clout to drag Israel and the Jews back from the abyss that Zionism casting them into….
    http://www.acjna.org/acjna/articles_detail.aspx?id=546
    http://www.acjna.org/acjna/Default.aspx

    Reply

  13. Marcus says:

    The G8 has just issued a statement,completly siding with Israel, any of you faux patriot poseurs read that.
    The G8 IS we,us,one of us,etc. you bunch are the other. do you understand.

    Reply

  14. Marcus says:

    one of the lamest and oldest tricks of anti-semites is to attribute any remark a jew makes as representing the jewish worlds stance.
    POS claims that I represent zionists and or, all jews.LOL
    As a free people,jews exercise free will and express diverse opinions this is confusing to many people, see: carrolls post above.

    Reply

  15. Marcus says:

    BTW; there already is a palestinian state its called JORDAN, can you remeber that,if not, no worries, cause your going to start hearing it alot more often.
    Israel has been playing nicey nicey for way too long and thats about to change.

    Reply

  16. JohnH says:

    Marcus is obviously not an American. Or at least he does not espouse American values as articulated in the Declaration of Independence.
    But we already knew that he does not espouse American values. If we could get the rest of the Jewish supremacists to reveal their real values, instead of posing as enlightened Westerners, then we would be able to judge the Zionist project on its real merits.

    Reply

  17. PissedOffAmerican says:

    Geez, anyone else smell crap? Who let Marcus in the room?

    Reply

  18. MarkL says:

    Nadine,
    The Israelis HAVE tortured thousands of prisoners in the last few decades—or haven’t you read the news.
    If you would accept that there are Jewish terrorists, just as there are Muslism terrorists, Christian terrorists, Hindu terrorists, all motivated by primitive, ignorant religious beliefs, I wouldn’t need to remind you.
    I’m not singling out the Jews—YOU are, in claiming that Jewish zealouts do not stir up the pot, too.

    Reply

  19. Carroll says:

    What’s it like nadine?….in your delusional little world?.. not really being a part of “The Jews” you throw around all the time and use like a shield the way the IDF uses Palestine children as human shields, as a defense against criticism of Israel and the jews or zionist.
    There were a lot of Jews honey who despised your kind and still do. They knew what you were, your moral sickness and destructive tribal cultism and they tried to stop it. While most Americans had no knowledge back then of zionist or what zionism was and were only familiar with the holocaust story, the “Other Jews” knew all about the zionist….they knew what they would do in Palestine …and in the US… and what would happen.
    In all the historical revision and spinning you and wig do about how Americans support Israel I notice you never mention materials facts like the opposition of the “other Jews’ to zionism and Israel.. Now why is that?
    NYT

    Reply

  20. JohnH says:

    Nadine wants us to focus on anything but Israel. And a lot of the cases that she mentions are tragedies. But there is a big difference between Uzbek refugees and Palestinian refugees:
    a) those ethnically cleansing Uzbeks have no supporters here, defending their actions
    b) it is not being done with US connivance and American tax dollars.
    Of course people criticize Israel in part because Jewish supremacists want us to believe that up is down, that they are “like us” and espouse Western universal values of freedom, tolerance and fair play (all men are created equal). Their actions belie their hypocritical noble rhetoric.
    Every time Israel conducts a pogrom in the region, the US rushes in aid to maximize the destruction, which means that senseless destruction and needless civilian casualties are being done in the name of all Americans.
    If Nadine would bother to note, I do not criticize just Jewish supremacists, but also American “exceptionalists” who apparently have no problem bombing funeral processions and wedding parties in Afghanistan, or presiding over a civil war in Iraq that created a couple million refugees and killed hundreds of thousands, if not a million or more.

    Reply

  21. nadine says:

    Sure, MarkL, Iran is torturing and raping political prisoners by the thousands due to “Jewish land grabs”. Hizbullah owns Lebanon due to “Jewish land grabs”. 40,000 Kurds are killed by Turks because of “Jewish land grabs”. 400,000 Uzbeks are new refugees in Uzbekistan because of “Jewish land grabs”. Not that you care about them, no Jews involved. But you’re great humanitarians; you say so all the time.
    The Mideast would all be such an oasis of peace if a tiny strip called Israel didn’t exist, the one-tenth of one percent “land grab”. You could care less about the ownership of the other 99.9% of the Middle East. You guys have an obsessive-compulsive foreign policy, centered on Israel, just like an OCD sufferer washes his hands 900 times in a row to remove an invisible spot.

    Reply

  22. larry birnbaum says:

    “…the humiliation of ordinary citizens in their home countries in the Arab-Asian region due to purely local reasons, and the humiliation of entire societies by invading foreign armies.”
    I understand that “humiliation” is a significant theme in the societies we are talking about, and looms large in their public discourse. But I’m not sure either how we should interpret this or respond to it. It’s connected for example with the grotesque practice of “honor killing” of women. And if we think about, say, Germans today, and for quite a while actually, they probably feel a lot more humiliated by what their fathers and grandfathers did than by invading foreign armies. I’ve no doubt that Iraqis felt (and feel) angry, and even humiliated, by the American invasion and occupation of their country. But I wonder how humiliated they feel about letting their country be run, for several decades, by a psychotic sociopath.

    Reply

  23. JohnH says:

    Israel kicks Palestinians out of their homes. And America bombs funeral processions and wedding parties. But if you ask Israeli supremacists and American war enthusiasts why people are fighting against them, they said “it must be religious extremism!”
    These people are beyond contempt.

    Reply

  24. JohnH says:

    “Of course, Nadine will say anything rather than admit a religious ideology is involved in [Jewish] radicalization” and ethnic cleansing in Jerusalem.
    http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5ghwkWyYRtQCrAMEP7LFZlcgDOd5A
    And Nadine can’t image why anyone might be upset when they’re forcibly evicted from their homes. But try to take a nickel from BP and Nadine is outraged, simply outraged!

    Reply

  25. MarkL says:

    Nadine,
    Jewish inspired terrorism and land grabs are a major source of today’s problems in the MidEast, so spare me the fucking nonsense.

    Reply

  26. nadine says:

    “In their eyes, Muslims around the world are being hunted and killed indiscrimately by the US;
    it’s routine for entire extended families of innocents to be killed by bombs hitting their targets. If a young person identifies more with fellow Muslims than Germans, the beginning of the path of radicalization is easy to understand.” (MarkL)
    That’s true, MarkL, but it’s been true for a long time. It didn’t just start as a reaction to the Gulf Wars. The Muslim Brotherhood was founded in the 1920s with the slogan “Islam is the answer”. Islamic radicals always had a long list of grievances (the root of which was the weakness of the ummah in the modern world), to which all war grievances have been added.
    Of course, Andrew Lebovich will say anything rather than admit a religious ideology is involved in radicalization.

    Reply

  27. JohnH says:

    I think terrorists are about as mentally ill as those who believe that there is a terrorist behind every rock: fear for your lives!. Sadly, there are lots of the latter, inculcated on a daily basis in the madrasas of the mainstream media. Fortunately, there are very, very few actual terrorists.

    Reply

  28. karenk says:

    If someone is going to begin thinking in violent radical ways towards fellow citizens, leading to terrorist acts, then really they are a bit mentally ill. There will always be those people and they may be difficult to pick out beforehand. But for “borderliners” I would suppose that the ability to have a “good life”- whatever that means to a person-to be able to actualize who you are within a certain society-would be a huge deterrent. If ur life is happy, u dont feel the need to blow people up..

    Reply

  29. Carroll says:

    Posted by JohnH, Jun 26 2010, 11:17AM – Link
    Are all these people really stupid as stones, or is their ignorance in willful service of the interests that pay them?
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Some are stupid.
    But the politicans that take the money in return for allowing slo mo genocides, war crimes and collective punishment aren’t ignorant of what they are doing they just don’t care.
    Oh wait!…that means we have monsters running the US government don’t we?
    Gee…how did that happen?

    Reply

  30. JohnH says:

    Of course, America’s actions could not conceivably ever be a factor in animating terrorism. Each terrorists magically wakes up one day an says, “I want to attack America” for no particular reason whatsoever! The Germans are as befuddled as anybody, the they have decided to spend money studying this impenetrable mystery!
    Or they might consider reading people who have actually thought about the problem:
    The “blending of perceived global threats with daily experienced local grievances seems to be a critical mental and political fulcrum in the making of terrorists

    Reply

  31. MarkL says:

    I don’t approve of what Islamic radicals do, but I think it’s willful blindness to pretend that it’s difficult to understand their motivation.
    In their eyes, Muslims around the world are being hunted and killed indiscrimately by the US;
    it’s routine for entire extended families of innocents to be killed by bombs hitting their targets. If a young person identifies more with fellow Muslims than Germans, the beginning of the path of radicalization is easy to understand.
    Only the mechanics of the transformation remain—how to meet like-minded people, how to move from personal anger to action.
    The utterly infuriating aspect of the situation
    with civilian casualties is that many of these bombs are being delivered by people sitting in secure, comfortable rooms thousands of miles away.
    I understand that McChrystal went further than his predecessors in apologizing for mistakes.
    Still, the symmetry of attacking civilians in the US (for example) is completely logical to me.
    Let me be clear: I do not want a single one of these attacks to succeed. I want the harshest measures employed against those who try, and
    I favor vigorous pursuit of intelligence to stop attacks. On the other hand, the entrapment of people whose only intention to commit terrorist acts comes at the urging of a paid government informant is troubling, and creates no added security, IMO.
    When you stir up a hornet’s nest, don’t act mystified if you are stung.
    The hotline sounds like a good idea to me, BTW; research into the root causes of radicalization, on the other hand, sounds like a waste of money.

    Reply

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